Flags and Lost Causes
South Vietnam flag OK'd
Jan 29, 2003
BY TYLER WHITLEY
TIMES-DISPATCH STAFF WRITER
The House Rules Committee meddled in foreign affairs yesterday, then
took care of some of its own business.The committee adopted 8-6 a measure
that makes the flag of the former nation of South Vietnam "the
only flag depicting the country of Vietnam that may be displayed"
in any public state function, including schools.
Communist North Vietnam won a bloody war over South Vietnam. The United
States fought with South Vietnam, and more than 56,000 Americans lost
their lives before the United States withdrew from the conflict. Del.
Robert D. Hull, D-Fairfax, sponsor of the proposal, said public schools
in Northern Virginia, where there is a large immigrant population, sometimes
display the flags of the many immigrants in the schools.
Because there is a large population of South Vietnamese refugees in
Northern Virginia, the students are embarrassed by the display of the
official flag, he said. "Ninety-nine percent owe their allegiance
to the South Vietnam flag," he said. He said 1,309 Virginians lost
their lives defending South Vietnam.
Del. Frank D. Hargrove, R-Hanover, jokingly asked Hull whether he had
changed his mind about the display of the flag of another defeated nation,
the Confederacy. Hull said the Confederacy was a democratic country
that readopted the U.S. Constitution after the Civil War. North Vietnam
was a communist tyranny that imposed its will on the South, he said.
Contact Tyler Whitley at (804) 649-6780 or twhitley@t...
Date: Sun, 2 Feb 2003 14:30:45 +0700
From: Andrew Wells-Dang <andrew@ffrd.org>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Flags and lost causes
Thanks for postings on this--a fascinating issue as it brings up larger questions of flags and national vs. state identity. As with the Confederate flag, after the US Civil War flags can be appropriated for various political purposes long after they have any official governmental function. (For instance in claims that the Confederacy, or South Vietnam, were "democracies"...) My source (Ellen Hammer) states that the three-red-stripes-on-yellow flag was created by Bao Dai in 1948 for the pro-French government of General Nguyen Van Xuan. If true, that makes this flag newer than the yellow-star-on-red one, which was already used by the Viet Minh in 1945. Can anyone add more?
Just as the Stars and Bars means different things to a Southern conservative and a civil rights activist, displaying the South Vietnamese flag could have several meanings, including:
(1) identification with and nostalgia for the South Vietnamese regime
that ended in 1975
(2) an attempt by the first generation of Vietnamese immigrants to assert
their leadership over those who arrived later
(3) mischief by activists who hope to weaken US-Vietnam relations
(4) support for overthrowing the current Vietnamese government, reversing
the outcome of the Vietnam War
It seems reasonable that older immigrants might still want to use the flag privately in its nostalgic sense. This is generally how I interpret its use at places like Eden Center and Little Saigon (and feel good about shopping there). Putting the flag in schools and official spaces, though, suggests meanings (2) or (3), while Virginia Gov. Warner's proclamation of a "Vietnamese American Freedom Fighter Day" (see Wash. Post article below) suggests meaning (4).
Knowing several of the Northern Virginia Viet kieu who are quoted in the Post article, one of whom is among the main instigators of the religious freedom campaign and the "VN Human Rights Act" in 2001, I am inclined to interpretations 2 and 3. The attempt to identify the SRV with the Nazis is just a little too heavy-handed. And it seems strange for the Virginia bill's sponsor to say that 99% of Vietnamese immigrants "owe their allegiance to the South Vietnamese flag" when more than half of them were born after the war ended, and many are US citizens. My sense is that 99% of immigrants from any country owe their allegiance to the American flag, and that it is irresponsible and divisive to suggest otherwise.
Kudos to those Virginia legislators who had the good sense to vote against the bill in committee and hopefully prevent it from going further.
--Andrew Wells-Dang
*************************
Bid to Honor South Vietnamese Elicits Anger
By Steven Ginsberg and William Branigin
RICHMOND, Jan. 28 -- A committee of Virginia legislators approved a bill today that would honor the lost cause of South Vietnam through the display of the republic's old flag, a proposal that heartened many war refugees in the Washington region but was quickly condemned by the Vietnamese government as "insolent."
The bill, approved 8 to 6 by the House Rules Committee, would require that the flag of the defeated Republic of Vietnam, rather than the official flag of the communist government, be displayed at any public function. Public schools and colleges also would be required to display only the old flag.
The measure's sponsor, Del. Robert D. Hull (D-Fairfax), said the proposal aims to support democracy over communism and remove a painful symbol, the communist flag. In Vietnam, "free people that were defeated now live under communist rule," he said.
The Vietnamese Embassy in Washington reacted angrily to House Bill 2829, demanding that it be killed in the General Assembly. Legislators said the State Department contacted them almost immediately after the vote to express concern about constitutional issues and fear that the action could cause an international rift.
Acknowledging those concerns, House Speaker William J. Howell (R-Stafford) said he planned to have the bill referred back to committee to kill it.
"If [Del. Hull] doesn't take care of it, I think someone else will," said Howell, who had voted for the proposal.
Hull vowed to press on. "Just because the State Department objects doesn't mean we won't go forward," he said.
As Virginia becomes increasingly diverse, many politicians have sought to address the interests of minority communities. Tagalog, Spanish and other languages have made their way into campaign speeches, and politicians have begun advertising in foreign-language newspapers.
Last year, Gov. Mark R. Warner (D) declared that June 19, 2002, would be Vietnamese American Freedom Fighter Day and that the South Vietnamese flag, with its three red bars on a yellow background, is an "eternal symbol of hope and love of freedom." Warner spokesman Kevin Hall said the governor hasn't taken a position on the House bill.
About 45,000 Vietnamese residents live in the Washington region, including nearly 29,000 in Northern Virginia. The community has become one of the region's most noticeable, establishing restaurants, markets and other imprints across Northern Virginia, including many at the popular Eden Center in Falls Church, which Hull represents.
The new and old flags of Vietnam arouse passions. In 1999, thousands of Vietnamese refugees protested for 53 days outside a video store in California after the owner displayed the Vietnamese flag and a picture of former North Vietnamese president Ho Chi Minh.
Yesterday, Bach Ngoc Chien, the press attaché at the Vietnamese Embassy in Washington, issued a statement saying, "We totally reject Bill 2829."
"According to international conventions and practices, the golden star and red flag, the sole and official flag symbolizing the State of Vietnam, must be hoisted on all occasions and in all places on the United States soil when there is a requirement of display of the national flag of Vietnam."
Nguyen Dinh Thang, executive director of Boat People SOS, a Vietnamese American civic group in Falls Church, said ethnic Vietnamese parents and students "reject the red flag and gold star as a symbol of oppression and persecution." States have the sovereign right to determine which flags to display, he said.
Thang said schools sometimes displayed the Hanoi government's flag without realizing that it deeply offended thousands of refugees who fled the former South Vietnam after forces of the communist north captured Saigon in April 1975. "It's just like displaying the swastika in a community with a lot of people of Jewish background," said Thang, 45, who came to the United States in 1979 as a refugee after surviving a harrowing trip to Malaysia aboard a rickety boat.
Virginia schools "should display a flag representing the overseas refugee community who fled the communists, and not a flag that we do not accept," said Jackie Bong-Wright, who arrived in the United States from Vietnam in 1975 as a widow with three children.
As president of the Vietnamese American Voters Association in Falls Church, she encourages refugees to register. She estimates that about 12,000 are registered to vote in Fairfax County.
Staff writers Michael D. Shear and Phuong Ly contributed to this report.
Date: Sun, 02 Feb 2003 14:51:02 +0700
From: Vern Weitzel <weitzel@undp.org.vn>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Flags and lost causes
Following this question, I have wondered if there was a flag which represented Indochinese states prior to or coincident with French occupation? Are (national) flags really that new and entity in Asia? Vern
From dgm405@coombs.anu.edu.au Wed Oct 15 18:10:09 2003
Date: Mon, 03 Feb 2003 17:49:42 +1100
From: David Marr <dgm405@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Flags and lost causes
Hello Vern and all,
During the French colonial era, everyone was expected to salute the
tricolor. However, the Nguyen emperor was allowed to retain his own
banner. Following Japanese dumping of the French in March 1945, the
`Empire of Viet Nam' (Viet Nam De Quoc) employed a yellow banner with
the Chinese character for Ly in red in the middle, signifying fire,
south and civilization. This lasted until August.
In pre-colonial days, my impression is that dynastic armies carried banners with the royal surname (Tran, Le, etc.), but maybe I've just picked that up from 20th century books and movies. Can anyone elucidate?
David
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 18:48:44 +1100
From: J Ramsay <jacob.ramsay@anu.edu.au>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Flags and lost causes
A clue may be in the ceremony of Te Ky Dao (sacrifice to the banner)
which is described in detail by Fr. Adriano Di St. Thecla for its practice
in 18th C Tonkin (now available in English thanks to Olga Dror's excellent
translation of _A Small treatise on the Sects_).
A short article by Dang Ngoc Oanh ("Le Sacrifice au Drapeau"
_Bulletin des Amis de Vieux Hue_ 1915, 371-375) tells us the practice
recommenced under the Nguyen on the 11th year of Minh Mang, 1830. The
practice was an appropriation of a ceremony first inaugurated under
the Ming in the fourteenth century. The ceremony last occurred in 1907.
Oanh provides a colour picture, the flag shows an ascending dragon on
a yellow field surrounded by clouds. The banner has three borders, from
inside out, blue, green and a pinkish red jagged edge.
I think Chaigneau's souvenirs has a picture of aTay son flag -- a yellow disc on a crimson field.
J Ramsay
Date: Mon, 3 Feb 2003 09:49:29 -0500
From: Dan Duffy <dduffy@email.unc.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Flags and lost causes
Andrew Wells-Dang's list of reasons for flying that flag are wonderful.
The nice thing about a flag is that it means so many different things.
I get a warm buzz looking at the RVN flag thinking about all the wonderful Saigon writers I became acquainted with while reading my way through Paris bookstores and listening to Michel Fournie's lectures. I avert my mind from the times people have waved the thing in my face for a photo opportunity, disrupting a scholarly conference or a poetry reading.
The comparison to the Confederate flag is fascinating to a Viet Nam country specialist working in North Carolina. I think that best thing we can do with the Stars and Bars here in the South is for everyone to start wearing it. This is a view from the anti-racist branch of Southern and Western populism. The idea is that American-style race hatred serves to divide working people and to leave professional racialists of the different hues in charge.
Similarly, the issues that divide people with an allegiance to a Viet Nam only help elites, and put obstacles in the way of young people and poor people. So, you know, I was concerned that the RVN flag at the mall in Charlotte was getting ratty. The big ones at Eden plaza in Falls Church in Virginia always look so sharp. I was pleased yesterday to see at the Charlotte Tet party that they have a new one flying.
I wonder where you buy one. I can't realistically recommend that we all start wearing the RVN colors, but I wish I could. Although the cretins with the yellow flags have disrupted several scholarly and cultural events I have participated in, they really haven't done much damage.
The cops and legislators in Boston and New Haven and DC and certainly in North Carolina are basically on my side on the question of whether people should be able to use the RVN flag to intimidate the public. If I lived in LA or Seattle, where the cops are not so clearly on my side, I would have to go find other allies.
That might not be such a bad thing for Vietnamese studies in the US, you know. How many of us can ask an African-Americanist in two sentences for support? How many of us have tried? Is there a sense of politics in the field that extends beyond asking the nice people at FLAS for another grant?
The demonstrators have a sense of politics from Paris and Saigon, where disruption is a kind of participation, where a great many educated professionals have demonstrated and busted something up at some point in their lives. It would seem that the people in Virginia have figured out that you don't get respect in the US by behaving that way.
So they have tried to pass a law. They are a national minority here, trying to pass a state law that contradicts the international order. They'll lose. But they are acting out of a universalist conception of human rights that does win respect all over these days. They'll win something, sometime, sooner or later. History is turning out to be on their side.
I would quibble with Andrew that the people who fly the RVN flag in the US aren't the first generation of Vietnamese immigrants to the US. The flag was first used by the Saigon exiles to intimidate the Vietnamese who had been here before 1975. Then, as Andrew says, the flag was used in the same way to communicate to the boat people as they came in, and to Vietnamese citizens as they began to visit.
But just because the people waving the things are bullies doesn't mean that everyone seeing them is intimidated. That flag wouldn't have even the weak and local legitimacy it does have if it didn't convey disparate, unpredictable, positive associations to a great many people.
Here's a funny Southern story to that point. I visited a Saigon sculptor in Atlanta. Vietnamese sculptors are hen's teeth, you know, the easel tradition grew strong at the colonial art academies but sculpture remained a studio exercise. Each Vietnamese sculptor is really a one-off, except of course the ones who aren't artists, who do figures for temples and war memorials.
My host in Atlanta is a one-off who does temple figures. That is to say, he is an artisan who carries himself as an artist, my kind of guy. The morning I arrived he led Eric Henry and I off to what he called a "an interesting rock formation." It turned out to be Stone Mountain, the great Jim Crow monument to the militant spirit of the Confederacy.
Eric and I regard the victory of the Union as a settled matter and would otherwise have gone to our graves without setting foot in a racist shrine to the rebellion. When we recovered our composure we caught up with our host and pointed to the great whacking 500-foot bas-reliefs of Stonewall Jackson, Richard E. Lee and Jefferson Davis and asked "Do you know who they are?" He said, "Abraham Lincoln?"
You just don't know what a national symbol means to a nationalist until you ask.
Dan Duffy