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Di Cu+, Ty Nan, and Statistics

From johnev@netspace.net.au Wed Apr 21 09:24:26 2004
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:02:52 -0700
From: Peter Hansen <johnev@netspace.net.au>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Di Cu'

Dear List,

Can anyone enlighten me on the origins of the term "di cu'", as in "cuoc Di cu Bac vao Nam nam 1954-55", and how you would translate it. Most dictionaries I own translate "di cu'" as "emigration" or "to emigrate", which seems a little too general to me, lack the element of fleeing under compulsion; would not "di tru" be a better translation? On the other hand, "di cu'" seems not quite so urgent or acute as `di ta^?n' or `ty. na.n'. I am finding it difficult to find a via media which more exactly captures the term.

Please excuse my linguistic inadequacies.

Thanks in advance,

Peter Hansen

From sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca Wed Apr 21 09:56:09 2004
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 12:00:22 -0600
From: VINH Sinh <sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Di Cu+

Hi Peter & all:

Let's try to sort out the key words first:

1) DI CU+ : a compound Sino-Vietnamese word, in which " di " means " to move across " and " cu+ " means "dwelling/residence" (among other things). So "di cu+" is "to move one's residence, to change one's abode". There are other compound words beginning with " di ", such as:

- DI TRU' : settle (in)/move (to)/migrate/emigrate; if used as a noun: immigration (from other countries), emigration (to other countries);

- DI TA?N : ta?n implies "disperse/scattered". This compound word seems to have been created by some Vietnamese in VN after 1975 (I haven't seen it in Chinese), implies "to move across/out to settle in ddiferent places or in every direction" (for more on this term, see below).

TA?N also appears in SO+ TA'N (pronounced as TA'N, but has the same meaning and same Chinese character with TA?N), which means "evacuate, evacuation".

- DI THE^: The^ is this case means "a temporary dwelling", for both humans and birds. Because the term Di the^ is often used to indicate migratory birds, it gives a literary nuance when used for immigrants. This term is gaining popularity in Vietnamese literary works.

2) TY. NA.N : Another compound Sino-Vietnamese word, in which TY. means "to evade, to avoid, to shun, to hide", and NA.N means "difficulty, distress, trouble, calamity, etc.". Thus, TY. NA.N implies "to take/find refuge (shelter)", "to seek shelter/safety, to evacuate", or "to escape calamity".

From TY. NA.N, we have terms such as "NGU+O+`I TY. NA.N" ==> refugees, NO+I (CHO^~/DDI.A DDIE^?M) TY. NA.N ==> a place of refuge, a shelter, or a haven.

Now let's get to Pete's query (please see below):

Peter is right to point out that the term DI CU+ used in the 1954-55 context lacks "the element of fleeing under compulsion". In fact, the institution created by the Ngo^ DDi`nh Die^.m government in the South to deal with/(to take care of) this exodus was also called To^?ng uy? Di Cu+ (I hope my memory serves me well). Such a neutral term was used even by the government in the South, in my opinion, is because the resettlement of the Northerners in the South at the time was based on Article 14D of the Geneva Accords, which provides free passage for people in both North and South during the 300-day regroupment period.

Having said so, I should add that many people who left the North and went South in 1954-55 would see their resettlement not as DI CU+ but as TY. NA.N\.

On the other hand, "di cu'" seems not quite so urgent or acute as `di ta^?n' or `ty. na.n'. I am finding it difficult to find a via media which more exactly captures the term.

As indicated above, TY. NA.N gives one a sense of urgency. It explicitly implies that there is "trouble/difficulty/distress/calamity" in the place/area/country where one is and one wishes to seek safety. In contrast, DI TA?N does not. In DI TA?N, the cause/origin of the "evacuation" is not explicit: e.g., A fire broke out, a bombing/shelling began, therefore one had to evacuate. SO+ TA'N ==> DI TA?N. For this reason, in the exodus from VN following April 1975, those who left/fled VN would consider, more than often, their departure as an act of TY. NA.N; but the authorities in Vietnam would identify them as "ddo^`ng ba`o DI TA?N", i.e. "the compatriots who have evacuated/saught refuge in different places".

Best,

VINH Sinh

From sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca Wed Apr 21 09:58:36 2004
Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 17:22:02 -0600
From: VINH Sinh <sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Di Cu'

Just a point of information: the term which was widely used during the 1940s and early 1950s for "evacuation" in various parts of VN might be TA?N CU+ (Ta?n : disperse/to be dispersed/scatter/to be scattered; cu+ : to dwell/to live/to stay).

Best,

VINH Sinh

From johnev@netspace.net.au Wed Apr 21 09:58:16 2004
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:29:18 -0700
From: Peter Hansen <johnev@netspace.net.au>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Di Cu'

Many thanks to all for your responses, which were helpful. I think the most helpful point was Vinh Sinh's, that there was a dissonance between what the Diem administration was expressing in the use of such a relatively bland term as "di cu'", and what the North-South transmigrants
were subjectively feeling as to their plight. Incidentally, two small points.

1. I have a feeling that I saw term "di ta?n" used in 1954 to describe the airlift and sea voyage from Haiphong in 1954-5. I will try to find a reference.

2. The term used for the `Refugee Commission' in the South, headed by Bui Van Luong, was `Tong Uy Di Cu Ty Nan'.

Thanks again,

Peter Hansen

From rob@coombs.anu.edu.au Wed Apr 21 10:00:01 2004
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 10:43:37 +1000 (EST)
From: Rob Hurle <rob@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Di Cu'

Dear All,

The term used most often in the Viet Minh pictorial propaganda (late 1940s) is "ta'n cu+", and is used where the old, the very young, pregnant women, people who are ill, or those with no specific work to do are advised to depart the towns. Further advice is to set up markets in the forest areas at night, and not conduct schools in the daylight hours. Maybe "evacuate and scatter" could be a useful translation.

Cheers,

Rob Hurle
-----------------------------------------------------
Rob Hurle Tel: +61 2 6247 2397
Faculty of Asian Studies, ANU
PO Box 4013 Fax: +61 2 6247 2397
Ainslie Cell phone: 0417 293 603
Australia e-mail: rob@coombs.anu.edu.au
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From rob@coombs.anu.edu.au Wed Apr 21 10:00:26 2004
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 11:10:42 +1000 (EST)
From: Rob Hurle <rob@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Di Cu'

Hmmm...

I've just found another poster from the same period, but "ta?n cu+" is used.

Cheers,

From gclchew@yahoo.co.uk Wed Apr 21 10:01:22 2004
Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 04:10:49 +0100 (BST)
From: "[iso-8859-1] Grace Chew" <gclchew@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Vinh Sinh's explanation

Thanks, Vinh Sinh,for enlightening us on the various compounds on "migration" in Vietnamese.

Here's a remark on your comment:

- DI TA?N : ta?n implies "disperse/scattered".
This compound word seems to have been created by some Vietnamese in VN after 1975 (I haven't seen it in Chinese)

>>>>>> yi2 san4 (hanyu pinyin) in Modern Mandarin. "San4" is "scattered", as you have correctly pointed out that it is written with the same character as in "so tan".

Grace

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:15:56 -0400
From: Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Di Cu+

----------------------------------------

When I was growing up in Sg, southerners made a distinction between Bac Ky di cu, those who had come since 1954 and Bac Ky cuu, those who had migrated south before 1954 and had put down roots. The Bac Ky di cu were considered refugees. We did not refer to them as "dong bao ty nan" though the term ty nan might be used to refer to people who were uprooted because of natural disasters or because of warfare. The latter were sometimes herded into refugee camps (trai ty nan). Southern rural folks who migrated to cities because of war of for some other reason were never called "di cu".

Hue-Tam

Date: Tue, 20 Apr 2004 21:12:08 -0700 (PDT)
From: dnfox@u.washington.edu
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Q Re: ty nan and statistics

A tangent on this interesting conversation: I've read that in the south there were 2 million internal refugees (ty nan, I suppose) during the war, and I've also read that there were 10 million. Does anyone know what either of these figures is based on, or have an opinion as to which comes closer to some sort of truth?

Diane

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:15:31 -0400
From: Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: ty nan and statistics

Diane:

I don't know the figures, but we need to distinguish between those who were taken to refugee camps (for which data is available) and those who fled to cities such as Saigon and whose numbers can only be guessed at. Saigon and other cities swelled during the 1960s and 1970s, but one would need to tease out different factors (e.g normal demographic growth, ordinary rural to urban migration, and flight from fighting).

The best study of the refugee problem is by Louis Wiesner, dating from the mid 1990s.

Hue-Tam

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:08:08 -0700
From: Stephen Denney <sdenney@uclink4.berkeley.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: ty nan and statistics

Wiesner donated the files of materials he used for his book to the Indochina Center here at UC Berkeley, three office-sized file cabinet drawers.

- Steve Denney

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 08:47:30 -0700 (PDT)
From: dnfox@u.washington.edu
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: clarification on ty nan and statistics?

Thank you both, Tam Tai and Steve. Tam Tai, when you say "refugee camps", are you talking about ap chien luoc, or something else?

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 12:00:17 -0400
From: Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: clarification on ty nan and statistics?

ap chien luoc were strategic hamlets. There were refugee camps (trai ty nan). The head of the program was Dr. Phan Quang Dan.

Hue-Tam

Date: Wed, 21 Apr 2004 09:16:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: dnfox@u.washington.edu
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: clarification on ty nan and statistics?

Thank you. Yes. So much displacement, in so many ways.

Does anyone know how long it took to compile such statistics after other wars...the end of WW2, say?

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