What is "phong trào hóa" in English?
From: Hong Anh Thi Vu <firstname.lastname@example.org>
Could someone suggest translation of the term, “phong trào hóa” in English?
Rather than "popularize," a verb, the final syllable (morpheme?) 'hoa'
I would think it depends on context. If 'phong trao' is the Leninist term,
It could therefore be easily used ironically.
Along the same line as Adam Fforde's suggestion, I would change the translation of <phong tra`o> to <campaign>, which, to me, gives the same impression of short-sightedness and short-life movement as <phong tra`o>. <Movement>, although correct, feels more positive than <phong tra`o> does to me. Or, for a more cynical meaning of <phong tra`o>, I would use <fad>.
On <hoa'>, its presence actually turns a term into a verb. For example, to <Vie^.t hoa'> something is to <Vietnamize> it.
Therefore, <phong tra`o hoa'> is to <turn something into a campaign/movement/fad>. Hoang's choice of <popularize> is elegant and succinct. However, when <phong tra`o hoa'> is used cynically, then, in my opinion, <popularize> is not cynical enough even in its most cynical meaning.
Would love to hear more thoughts on this.
From: Hong Anh Thi Vu <email@example.com>
Thanks everyone who have contributed to clarifying the term "phong trào hóa". As Adam said, it depends on the context. The term was used to refer to the phenomenon of farmers adopting new crops for their potential profit without taking into consideration potential risks. For instance, when cow could fetch 5 million VND each, everyone wanted to raise cow. The same was true with pigs. When faced with losses due to price falls and disease outbreaks, as it has happened with pigs, cows, and shrimp in the Mekong Delta in recent years, farmers immediately stopped farming what they were doing for fear that they would not be able to break even. "Phong trào" could have started with a government policy, but many times, "phong trào" was initiated by farmers themselves. So I guess starting as a movement mobilized by the government, the term gradually picked up new meanings. Nevertheless, as chi Hien suggested, it carries negative connotation. Until we find a better match in English, I would perhaps use "popularize" with a footnote.
From: firstname.lastname@example.org on behalf of Adam Fforde
Since the dominant English dialects of VSG are American, then surely
How about "herd mentality"? But isn't that behaviour almost an occupational requirement to qualify as a farmer? This year Farmer X makes a killing on snow peas, so next year everyone grows snow peas, the price collapses, and everyone loses money, except Farmer Y who happened to plant cherry tomatoes, and she makes a killing on tomatoes, so next year everyone grows cherry tomatoes, the price collapses, etc. Has there ever been a market-sensitive farming economy anywhere that didn't exhibit this pattern (excepting subsistence farming for self-consumption)? Surely there are ag economists who've written dissertations on this...
If you use "popularize" for 'phong trao hoa,' it's still wrong, as I
Hi Frank, Your suggestion reminds me of the "phong trào buôn c? phi?u", or the craze around the stock market that took place in Vietnam last year and earlier this year immediately after the Lunar New Year. So the "herd mentality" exists not only among farmers, but non farmers as well. A similar term is "mob mentality". How different are the two?
Relating to this question, could you, and others, suggest some readings on the history of the "herd mentality"? Is it a typical response in the market economy? or has it been observed in other economic systems?
Criticism of the "herd mentality" in the Mekong Delta was made by some local farmers. I also noticed that the "herd mentality" seems much stronger in the South as compared with other regions of Vietnam and wonder if others would agree and if so, why that is the case.
Will Pore, the Vietnamse term "phong trào hóa" can be both a verb and a noun. Can you suggest how to use it as an adjective, or "tính phong trào"?
That is uncalled for. To call someone who is accomplished and learned the opposite does not reflect well on the accuser.
To the issue at hand, translation: If one looks at Huynh Sanh Thong's translation of the Tale of Kieu, one finds that he routinely violates "rules" of translation.
Take the first lines of the Tale of Kieu:
Tram nam trong coi nguoi ta/
Thong translate the second line something like (I don't have his book in front of me):
Talent and destiny are apt to feud.
A rather free translation, I'd say. I'm not sure I like it. But it is vivid, conveys the sense of the original reasonably well. It underlines, I think, that some translators focus on making sense in the target language, others on adhering more to the source language.
When translating Vietnamese bureaucratese, one is almost compelled to modify lest one come up with gobbledygook. Surely no one would say that one HAD to translate the word "qua trinh" (process) every time we see it? Most of the time, this has become an almost meaningless filler word. The words with "-hoa" endings are problems, as sometimes in English we have decent equivalents, and sometimes not. So why stick to "rules" when felicity of the translation is the goal?
From: Hue-Tam Ho Tai <email@example.com>
The use of hoa to convert a noun into a verb seems to be the result of German influence. Some of this happens in English, much to the dismay of purists (strategize comes to mind) but much less often.
On a tangential note: I have known Adam Fforde since he returned from spending one year in Vietnam in 1979--that was nearly thirty years ago. Adam has spent thirty years pondering the meaning of bureaucratic Vietnamese as well as the everyday language. I can think of no one else who can do regional accents as well as Adam.
I hope that Judith Henchy will step in to remind all of the rules for posting in VSG, in particular as regards courtesy.
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
The attribution of a "German influence" in the translation of
About the German influence, this is only speculation on my part, based on the idea that in German new words are much more easily formed than in either French or English.
As for nouns and verbs in Vietnamese, I think that Vietnamese grammar is very flexible and Vietnamese may be less preoccupied with proper grammatical usage than non-Vietnamese.
In the case of phong trao hoa, the addition of hoa would turn the phrase into a verb, I would think.
Regarding Adam's example of "nha nuoc hoa" a phrase that combines Vietnamese and Chinese, I am reminded of Ho Chi Minh's attempt to purge the Vietnamese language of as much Chinese as possible. It gave rise to such monstrosities as "dong chi gai" instead of nu dong chi. Older people can still chuckle at the memory.
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
Thanks for your clarifications.
This lively exchange once again demonstrates the need for a Vietnamese etymological dictionary. For starters, however, can someone go to a Chinese or Japanese dictionary to see if `hoa' used in this way precedes western contact or not?
`Phong trao' has been used in different ways over the years in Vietnam. During the 1930s it had an autonomous, more social connotation, which I would translate as `movement'. By the late 1940s the DRV state and the ICP were initiating `phong trao', which is then better translated as `campaign'. In mid-1960s South Vietnam, the students wanted to lead a revolutionary `phong trao' outside state control.
In my reading of 1930s-1960s Vietnamese books and articles, I've never come across the term 'phong trao hoa'. I suspect it was coined after 1975 as an ironic commentary on Party `campaign-itis'.
Just think how many other words are out there deserving of more rigorous historical treatment!
In response to Professor Marr's query:
Below are some notes on 'Hoa,' speculations about its history, and various readings of the Chu read in Han-Viet as "Hoa/". This is an attempt at a preliminary historical etymology and in no way seeks to domesticate the verdant playfulness of parole with dusty, sterile dictionaries.
The ideograph/character/chữ which in Han-Viet is pronounced 'Hoá' seems to have carried the meaning "to change or transform" since the 2nd Century CE. According to the Kangxi (Khang Hy) Dictionary, compiled in the 18th century, Xu Shen's Shuowen Jiezi (Thuyet Van Giai Tu), a collection of etymologies compiled during the Han Dynasty, associated 'Hoa' with transformation.
Much earlier, the Dao De Jing (Dao Duc Kinh) contains one of the earliest uses (according to the Khang Hy) of the term read in Han Viet as Bie/n Hoa/, meaning to change or transform. So, it might be either a combination of two words having the same meaning for emphasis or a 'hoa'-ing similar but likely not related to contemporary Vietnamese practice.
The -Matthews' Chinese-English Dictionary-, a frequently-consulted 19th-20th century lexicon, lists several "verbs" formed with "Hoa," 'Hua' in pinyin. Many of these, such as Ouzhouhua (Au Chau Hoa/Europeanize) are surely neologisms, but the core meaning of 'transform' conveyed by Hua is, in my opinion, consistent. One such Neologism among many that persists in contemporary Vietnamese is the term for chemistry, "Hoa Hoc," the study of change, if a grossly literal rendering can be forgiven.
In terms of Vietnamese sources, the -Dai Tu Dien Chu Nom- compiled by Truong Dinh Tin and Le Quy Nguu indexes four pronunciations for this particular Chu with definitions:
Unfortunately, the DTDCN does not provide complete etymological explanations, but the compilers do note the association of reading 2 with Buddhism.
The "Nom" reading in 3, as Professor Tai pointed out, indicates a local pronunciation of the official name for Hue, Thuan Hoa.
Bradley C Davis
In Vietnamese, I can only think of Thuan Hoa --> Hue. Very loosely translated, it would be "transformed into conformity."
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
I think you're right that suffix hoá needs a historical treatment.
I really dig your phong trào hoá "campaign-itis" with -hoá "-itis".
I looked in Phật thuyết đại báo phụ mẫu ân trọng kinh, and found
I do have an etymology ideogram dictionary by Lê Ngọc Trụ.
So, I found only "tiêu hoá" and "hoả hoá" before HXH which
OK, so how did the Vietnamese translator who did the voice over for 'Cat
Thanks, anh Nhan. I am minded of the first line of Ba Huyen Thanh Quan in Thang Long tuc canh:
"Tao hoa nen chi cuoc hi truong."
Hua in Chinese also has the meaning of "civilizing" (through transformation).
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
According to the etymological dictionary I consulted, the
Just want clarification
I do not share the view that the awful English term 'campaignise' does not
If I hear a Vietnamese say 'phong trao hoa', and I can imagine this
Another example of the power and economy of Vietnamese using this grammar
I see your point. I suppose im trying to figure out from this the distinction between say Xa Hoi hoa = as in anybody can join something that was not possible to join before, and than thanh hoa as in turning someone into a "special" person but phong trao hoa is sort of making something into a campaign or many campaigns - sort of thing.
I once found myself going into London dialect when translating an
That is sort of what I was trying to get at with 'accessorise' ...
We await the heavy artillery on 'thich nghi hoa' ...
On "thich nghi hoa": leaving aside the hoa which is equivalent to "ize" (in
But I don't know what "thich nghi hoa Bac Nam" would mean. Can you translate or
Hue-Tam Ho Tai
My sense of what was meant was that there had been a process whereby
PS I like 'tinh the', which is one way of translating, for me 'order' in
Is that the same 'nen' as the 'nen mong', 'nen van hoa', loosely translated
No, it's nen, with circumflex accent, but no diacritic--no tone. "Thich nghi"