Vietnam's Younger Generations: Marriage Market
From h-nguyen@northwestern.edu Fri Jul 16 09:04:43 2004
Date: Tue, 06 Jul 2004 13:10:24 -0500
From: Thanh Nguyen <h-nguyen@northwestern.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Vietnam's younger generation
Dear VSG, i am an undergraduate student at Northwestern University and I'm going to be conducting my own research in Vietnam in a few months- as my experience in vietnam has been very limited and as i am a Vietnamese american (as opposed to a native vietnamese youth)i do not have any concrete answers for darlene's question regarding vietnamese youth's perspectives today on vietnam's position in the international arena in terms of political economy and modern development.
however, i'd like to pose my own question perhaps as a way of broadening the scope of darlene's question. i'm particularly interested in the generation of vietnamese american youth and their interactions with vietnam via transnational marriages between viet kieu and natives in vietnam- Through my own experiences, it has seemed that VIetnamese youth in Saigon have embraced the Doi Moi ideals of open trade, greater globalization and modernization and material commercialization of vietnamese culture. and this generation's increasing rates of outmarriage to viet kieu, taiwanese, korean, (and other) foreign groups- may be not only an indication of the disparate socioeconomic conditions of vietnam, but also the sociological and ideogical trends positioning outmarriage as a viable path to obtaining all the desires for modernization, wealth, and gender equality.
I'm not sure if anyone is familiar with Hung Thai Cam's sociological articles on transnational marriages between viet kieu males and vietnamese women - but his work delves into the complex and fluid exchanges of conceptions of nationhood, vietnamese and Vietnamese american culture, and socioeconomics of each party- the vietnamese women and the vietnamese american men. In answering darlene's question, and in delving into my own, I think it is particularly important to examine these exchanges and interactions between a generation of young vietnamese women growing up in vietnam looking to vietnamese american men as a source of obtaining the ideals of post doi moi renovations- modernization and democracy, while for many vietnamese americans, vietnam is experienced through frozen culture as a source of obtaining lost tradition and culture.
as an undergraduate with little research experience in vietnam- i am extremely open to as much insight as possible regarding Vietnamese transnational marriages (in particular with viet kieu men/south koreans/ taiwanese/etc...) thoughts/comments/critiques/ of any kind and suggested readings are welcome and most appreciated!! thanks!!!
-thanh Nguyen
h-nguyen@northwestern.edu
Northwestern University
1861 North Sheridan
Evanston, IL 60201
or
3008 W. Jarvis
Chicago, IL 60645
312-451-7331
From lchiu@umich.edu Fri Jul 16 09:05:17 2004
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 15:01:54 +0200
From: Lily Chiu <lchiu@umich.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: Vietnam's younger generation
Dear Thanh Nguyen and the VSG list,
Thank you for starting this interesting discussion on Vietnamese-Viet Kieu marriages. It is a subject that has come up in contemporary Vietnamese and Viet Kieu literature as well; off the top of my head I can think of Nguyen Qui Duc's story "The Color of Sorrow," which gives the Viet Kieu male's point of view, and and Võ Thá»^Ë Xuân Hà 's "Nhà có ba chá»^Ë em," which gives the Vietnamese native woman's point of view. You may want to check those out if you're interested in a literary representation of the subject.
I am also interested in the question of Vietnamese women marrying Taiwanese men, but I haven't found much research being done on this issue. I've only read articles and heard stories, both in Vietnam and Taiwan, about the occasional mistreatment of Vietnamese women in these marriages. To support the trend Hung Cam Thai has discovered regarding transnational marriages between Viet-Kieu men and Vietnamese women, apparently the bulk of Taiwanese men who seek out Vietnamese wives are also low-wage and uneducated laborers who find themselves unable to attract more highly-educated, financially independent Taiwanese women. Vietnamese wives now number over 60,000 in Taiwan, and are rapidly changing the population demographic there (the last statistic I heard was one in every eight children being born in Taiwan now are half-Vietnamese). In addition, many of them have serious problems integrating into Taiwanese society, facing cultural and linguistic barriers among other things. If anyone has done research on this issue, I'd be very much interested in knowing about it.
Lily Chiu
Visiting Assistant Professor
School of Humanities, Arts and Cultural Studies
Hampshire College
Amherst, MA 01002
From jhannah@u.washington.edu Fri Jul 16 09:05:20 2004
Date: Thu, 8 Jul 2004 07:30:55 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Hannah <jhannah@u.washington.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: Vietnam's younger generation
The Mobility Research and Support Center (MRSC), a local (Vietnamese) NGO in HCMC specializing in health issues for women migrant workers, has done a significant amount of research on this issue. One of their several reports and publications on this topic is called "Marriages of Convenience." It it is an edited volume of articles by several "foreign" and Vietnamese researchers, edited by MRSC's director, Ms. Do Thi Nhu Tam.
MRSC works with international NGOs and with partner organizations in Taiwan. Ms. Tam and MRSC can be contacted at caramvn@hcm.vnn.vn
Joe Hannah
From dgm405@coombs.anu.edu.au Fri Jul 16 09:05:24 2004
Date: Thu, 08 Jul 2004 13:46:40 +1000
From: David Marr <dgm405@coombs.anu.edu.au>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Vietnam's younger generation
Dear Thanh Nguyen,
I think you are on to a fascinating topic.
From watching families in Vietnam and Viet Kieu families here in Australia, admittedly a limited sample, I'd urge you to look at how many of these marriages don't last very long, and why. Clearly there is a perception gap on both sides of the equation. In some cases, however, neither side expects the marriage to persist -- it's a temporary convenience. In other cases the man expects a compliant, `traditional' mate from Vietnam, whereas the young woman has a game plan that involves getting her feet on the ground overseas, finding a job, and saying farewell to her flustered husband.
I'd be especially interested to hear of any young (or not so young) Viet Kieu women coming to Saigon to find a husband. If not, why not? And how about same-sex marriages?
David Marr
From: VSG-owner@u.washington.edu [mailto:VSG-owner@u.washington.edu] On Behalf Of Hung Thai
Sent: Thursday, July 08, 2004 6:43 AM
To: Vietnam Studies Group
Subject: Re: Vietnam's younger generation
Dear David and others,
I find your interpretation of these marriages deeply troubling--the classic bipolar views of "international marriages," of "men going there for submissive wives" and of "women coming here for economic reasons." I have written some on this exact topic and have argued for a more nuanced, complicated view, grounded on both "economy of economy" and "economy of desires." One of the reasons why Viet Kieu women do not come back for husbands is because demographically speaking, there are far more Viet Kieu men than there are Viet Kieu women in the
diaspora who are of marriageable age (see Goodkind, 1999), making such transglobal marriages almost necessary for the men (although some can argue that such demographic effects began to disappear in the early 1990s). Even so, if we account for out-marriage and out-dating rates among Viet Kieu women, the numbers can continue to explain part of the demographic imbalance among Viet Kieu folks on the marriage market. But as I have pointed out, demography can only explain part of the GENDER configurations that are happening in Vietnamese post-migrant communities as well as in globalizing Vietnam. I have pointed out that most men in overseas Vietnamese communities who go back for wives are in the low-wage labor market--an answer to why they have been unable to seek marital partners in their overseas locations. At the same time, most women are middle class or are highly educated in Vietnam--making them, in part, "unmarriageable" in their local contexts (see arguments by Daniele Belanger on women in Hanoi and Nicole Constable on the situations of women in the Philipines and in China). So there is a larger "gender revolution" coinciding with globalization, modernization, and transnationality across the Asian diaspora.
So yes, there are women who want to "ger her feet" on the overseas ground and then saying farawell to her husband, and yes, there are men who want traditional wives. But I would urge us to empirically discover what portion of this pattern is actually true--e.g. how many of such marriages end in divorce? How many women actually want to leave Vietnam? What social class? Who are the men really marrying? Who are as transpacific brides? Who are rejected as transpacific grooms? Based on my years of research, I have discovered that very few such marriages end in divorce--they are not often happy marriages, but divorce is rarely in the picture--a fact that can be explained partly by how these marriages were initiated (through, mostly, arrangements with wide networks of kin looking over the marital couples).
I would be happy to send you my published work on this issue, and a draft of my forthcoming book entitled, "For Better or For Worse: Marriage and Migration in the New Economy. (Rutgers).
On the issue of same-sex marriages, I believe that this is not only a question of marriage, but also a question of migration. And thus, because most countries do not allow for the sponsorship of same-sex partners, such marriages are not possible (at least when they get to the migration part of it).
Best,
Hung Cam Thai
Assistant Professor
Department of Asian American Studies
University of California, Santa Barbara
From ngminh@umich.edu Fri Jul 16 09:05:56 2004
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 11:47:36 -0400
From: Nguyen Quang Minh <ngminh@umich.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: Vietnam's younger generation
Dear list,
The discussion is fascinating. Although it might sound off topic and is completely empirical, it seems to me that the members of the younger generation of viet kieu, whether in the US or elsewhere, have a different and more blurry notion of tradition and their expectations for their Vietnamese spouses might not be so much of an issue, as they are getting accustomed to their countries of residence despite the traditional values they may have received from the older generation.
Adding to Hung Cam Thai's study on the numerical gender inequality in the Vietnamese diaspora, I think one other factor is the popular exoticism or exoticization of young Asian (therefore Vietnamese) women. More viet kieu women marry ethnically non-Vietnamese men (at least in more progressive viet kieu/Vietnamese families) than the opposite, which leaves viet kieu men with fewer potential viet kieu wives. I wonder if there are numbers to back up this last conjecture.
Minh
____________________________________________________
Nguyen Quang Minh - ngminh@umich.edu
From jhannah@u.washington.edu Fri Jul 16 09:06:04 2004
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:49:26 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Hannah <jhannah@u.washington.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: Vietnam's younger generation
Minh, Your postng leads me to ask publicly a question I have long held privately: Do Vietnamese women "exoticize" White me? I know I draw a great deal more attention from the opposite sex in Vietnam than I ever did in the US! Or can this apparent behavior of Vietnamese women in Vietnam be explaned merely by the stereotypical "White man = money+immigration" equation?
Joe Hannah
From ngminh@umich.edu Fri Jul 16 09:06:07 2004
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 14:10:06 -0400
From: Nguyen Quang Minh <ngminh@umich.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: Vietnam's younger generation
Dear Joe,
I was just trying to raise some questions from personal experiences, but your question is also interesting. Being a man of Vietnamese origin, I cannot answer your question. Although, it seems to me that men are not as objectified as women, and objectification is mostly a "western" concept. But all this goes beyond the scope of the original question.
Minh
From paglaicc@hawaii.edu Fri Jul 16 09:06:11 2004
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 09:47:14 -1000 (HST)
From: Gino Paglaiccetti <paglaicc@hawaii.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Vietnamese youth
Hmm, I don't think that objectification of women is necessarily a 'western' concept. That we can discuss the objectification of women may be western, but the idea of treating women as things can definitely be found in much Asian literature...the Ming classic Jin Ping Mei (Viet Kim Binh Mai?) is a great example of treating women as a type of commodity.
On another note, I wanted to add a recent observation about the female Vietnamese laborer+Taiwan connection that was introduced earlier. I just came back from Hanoi on Saturday, and while in Hanoi airport, I noticed a group of young Viet women wearing an identical corporate shirt and cap (in Chinese: the name of the company was something like the friendship and personal strength company: you yi renli gongsi) milling around waiting to board a plane for Taibei. I couldn't help but eavesdrop.
I found that they were all from Thanh Hoa and had just been recruited to 'take care of the elderly and children' in Taiwan. The recruiter had been a maid in Taiwan for a few years already and after picking up quite a bit of Mandarin (all the other women constantly praised her for being kheo) married her boss. She told me and the other maids-to-be many horrific stories about how her boss-come-husband regularly abused her and how life was so kho khan. And yet she was also decked out with a lot of jewelry and really stood out from the Thanh Hoa newbies. The whole thing was both extremely striking and troubling.
I have one more comment about possible exotification of westerners. I found I received many more compliments from males in Hanoi than females...in fact my new vocab this summer was sanh dieu (or sang dieu) which seems to be the hip summer slang meaning something like chic, or stylish. I have to admit that I never tired of hearing Hanoians tell me how sinh or sanh dieu I was (can anyone verify that sanh dieu is the correct spelling?)
While we are talking about sexuality in Vietnam I would like to register a complaint. I, for one, am really sick of being offered a Vietnamese girlfriend or women EVERY SINGLE time I meet a new Vietnamese friend. Can anyone else confirm that the following conversation is somewhat normal for a western male who can speak Vietnamese?
Viet: Anh la nguoi nuoc nao?
Me; Da, em/toi la nguoi My
Viet: Anh may tuoi roi?
Me: Da, 30 tuoi roi.
Viet: Lay vo chua?
Me: Da, chua.
Viet: Anh muon mot ban gai Viet Nam khong?
If it's not a ban gai, then it's inevitably a con gai Viet Nam, or this summer I was a bit startled to be offered a ca ve and that I needed a bau. In one case, a bunch of cadres offered me 2 women (whom they didn't know) on the hydrofoil from Cat Ba to Haiphong...the women just looked downwards (out of modesty? Shame? What?) I had versions of this conversation about a zillion times in the last 3 weeks...how come this conversation wasn't a model in any of the Vietnamese primers that I studied?
Someone please tell me I'm not the only one having this conversation. I also need someone to validate that although we all need a certain degree of cultural relativism and respect for the differences of Vietnamese culture that its ok to make these Viet males uncomfortable (and maybe even lose face) by telling them that this way of talking is rude.
Ok, off my soap box and out to the beach.
Gino
From hhtai@fas.harvard.edu Fri Jul 16 09:06:14 2004
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 16:20:50 -0400
From: Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Vietnamese youth
Gino:
If you were an unmarried woman, you would be asked why it is you are not married yet, though you might not be offered a possible boyfriend.
On the topic of women going to Taiwan, there has been research on the feminization of international labor. Nicole Constable has written a nice book about Filipina maids entitled: Maid in Hong Kong. Vietnamese women are, unfortunately, becoming part of this global trend, sometimes with dire results. There has also been a book published a couple of year ago by the Center for Women's Studies on the traffic of Vietnamese women to South China.
Hue-Tam
From sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca Fri Jul 16 09:06:18 2004
Date: Fri, 09 Jul 2004 15:22:44 -0600
From: VINH Sinh <sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Vietnamese youth
Hi Gino,
I just have a couple of comments to make.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Gino Paglaiccetti" <paglaicc@hawaii.edu>
> On another note, I wanted to add a recent observation about the female
> Vietnamese laborer+Taiwan connection that was introduced earlier. I
> just came back from Hanoi on Saturday, and while in Hanoi airport, I
> noticed a group of young Viet women wearing an identical corporate
> shirt and cap (in Chinese: the name of the company was something like
> the friendship and personal strength company: you yi renli gongsi)
> milling around waiting to board a plane for Taibei. I couldn't help
> but eavesdrop.
===> In Sino-Vietnamese you yi renli gongsi should be : Hu+~u nghi. Nha^n
lu+.c Co^ng ty (in Unicode : Hữu nghá»^Ë Nhân lá»±c Công ty). Or in common Vietnamese word order: Co^ng ty Hu+~u nghi. Nha^n lu+.c (Công ty Hữu nghá»^Ë Nhân lá»±c), i. e. Friendship Manpower Co.
>
> I found that they were all from Thanh Hoa and had just been recruited
> to 'take care of the elderly and children' in Taiwan.
===> As a point of interest, I heard that Thanh Hoa is one of the poorest provinces in Vietnam.
> I have one more comment about possible exotification of westerners. I
> found I received many more compliments from males in Hanoi than
> females...in fact my new vocab this summer was sanh dieu (or sang dieu)
> which seems to be the hip summer slang meaning something like chic, or
> stylish. I have to admit that I never tired of hearing Hanoians tell me
> how sinh or sanh dieu I was (can anyone verify that sanh dieu is the
> correct spelling?)
===> Yes, sa`nh ddie^.u (sà nh Ä^Ñiá»^Çu) is correct. "Sa`nh" is "versed in/expert on/connoisseur of"; ddie^.u is "mode/mode of life/manner/style/trend of the times/things in vogue", etc. Put together, as you said, sa`nh ddie^.u is stylist, or dandyish/coquettish. In daily usage, sa`nh ddie^.u is "to have a good taste/to be in good taste".
Best,
VINH Sinh
From Minna.Hakkarainen@Helsinki.Fi Fri Jul 16 09:06:23 2004
Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 09:34:51 +0300
From: Minna Hakkarainen <Minna.Hakkarainen@Helsinki.Fi>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: Vietnam's younger generation
Dear lists!
The discussion about marriages between viet kieu men and Vietnamese women is very interesting. However, I personally would like to broaden the angle a bit. I have a viet kieu husband who has two sisters and one brother in the US. They've all lived there for over 20 years and are now between 40-50 years of age. The brother had a viet kieu girlfriend for some years when he was still in his twenties. He refused to marry her though as he insisted they should wait for his parents to move to US as well and participate the wedding. The parents were never allowed to go to US and the relationship finally ended as the viet kieu girlfriend got tired of waiting. Six years ago my brother in law married a woman from Dalat.
My two sisters-in-law however, have both stayed single. Younger one of them, a very attractive woman told me several years ago that in principal she would like to have a family of her own, but then continued: "I have dated some Americans, but soon realised that they are too different. I've also dated some viet kieu, but soon realised that they are expecting me to act like a traditional Vietnamese woman - obeying them, concentrating on cooking and home.. I've left Vietnam in order to study and do what I want. In Vietnam my mother always said that I can't continue my studies because I was a girl and girls don't need further education. That I should do something more useful instead.. I live with my best friend and her husband now and they are like a family to me. And I really think that I will rather live alone than let any one boss around me anymore."
What are the reasons that my other sister-in-law also has stayed single, I don't know exactly. But it would be very interesting for me to know whether they have chosen differently or whether viet kieu women like them are in fact plenty around there. If that is the case, it may also partly explain the need of viet kieu men to go and look for wives from other sources.
minna hakkarainen
reseacher
Institute for Asian and African Studies
University of Helsinki
From cjr11@cornell.edu Fri Jul 16 09:06:43 2004
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 14:59:00 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christophe J.p. Robert <cjr11@cornell.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: commodification of sexuality
I'm a bit uneasy about the turn the discussion about Vietnamese youth has taken into wink, wink territory, without addressing the basic issue of commodification.
In response to the turn of the discussion toward sexual politics – broadly conceived, especially as, or when, sex involves the native/foreign demarcation in all its ideological slipperiness - I think a useful, and sobering, account is Pr Nguyen Vo Thu Huong's dissertation: "Governing the Social: Prostitution and Liberal Governance during Marketization," 1998.
As the title indicates it's about a lot more than prostitution per se. It's an excellent place to look for information and crisp analysis of commodification, not simply of women's bodies, but of social relations in general in contemporary VN.
By reading between the lines, it also provides plenty of answers to the "anh la nguoi nuoc nao?" conversations Gino bemoans...
It analyzes the commodification of women and their bodies within the context of the emergence of class and gender hierarchies, specifically of a class of local business men whose wealth has murky origins - a harsh account of post-socialism in J. Nazpary's "Post-Soviet Chaos" calls this process simply "dispossession" of the non-connected poor and disenfranchised. The commodification of women and sexuality of course is a paradigmatic example of this process.
In the VN context, the men who belong to this emergent class need to display the trappings of their new wealth as a performance of their (new) rank in changing social hierarchies.
“... for this class of VN men, consuming pleasure in women conveniently served as a way in which performances of sexual domination could be read as social domination, a status benefiting their economic power^” (Nguyen Vo Thu Huong, 94)
This point is made in relation to Bourdieu's "Distinction" (pp. 386-387 in US edition).
For the purposes of thinking further about the ways in which Western and/or other foreign men may be questioned, propositioned and desired/resented, in what circumstances and by whom, I think a key concept in this dissertation is the following:
Sexual pleasure as native thing (performance of national identity):
(1) aesthecizes a vulgar pleasure-seeking activity.
(2) excludes foreigners from a status scale, the height of which would be occupied by VN entrepreneurs if foreigners could be discounted. (96)
I think this places the issue of Western/foreign men, including the questioning about "lay vo chua?", in an altogether different light.
A point that is not made explicitly in this dissertation, or at least that does not guide the analysis, is to compare the situation in VN today with what was taking place in SG in the 1960s. I think it's worthwhile to look into the similarities and differences, especially for those of us from a younger generation who did not experience these processes first-hand.
Christophe
From OJHM.Salemink@fsw.vu.nl Fri Jul 16 09:06:46 2004
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 03:00:55 +0200
From: Oscar Salemink <OJHM.Salemink@fsw.vu.nl>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: Vietnamese youth
yes, there are many questions that help determine status and therefore the correct relationship, but which people from western countries may expierence as entering a very private domain. But there is a difference between doing that, and questions that seem to suggest that Vietnamese women or girls are offered to a (or this) man. Even then, it could just be a test of one's morals, because there is a "good" answer - namely that indeed, Vietnamese girls are very beautiful but no, I am not interested in that for such and such reasons. This is then often followed by an approving nod, or "to^'t" - often from women if it is women who are asking such questions.
On another score, this happened to me a lot during the first years of Doi Moi, i.e. 1987-8 and 1990-1 when I happened to be in Vietnam. That was a time when the market was not very well developed yet. Even though there were "taxi girls" whose services were called in for those who were seen off to Eastern Europe at the time, the commoditization of sex had certainly not yet reached its present proportions. Interestingly, now that I am getting older (and consequently much less sanh dieu) I am hardly ever getting such questions anymore (phew!) which might seem to suggest that there could indeed be an inverse exoticization and desire taking place. Because even in a more fully developed (sexual) market context, and being in a financially more comfortable situation than I was 15 years ago or so, I am apparently less desirable, or at least no fun anymore as an object of sexually tinted conversations.
An alternative take might be that I have given answers already to everybody who would be interested...
Oscar Salemink
From inkstoneUSA@comcast.net Fri Jul 16 09:06:50 2004
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 19:25:09 -0700
From: Hieu & Rosemary Nguyen <inkstoneUSA@comcast.net>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: Vietnamese youth
On a lighter note: I happened to sing in a concert in Hanoi in 1990 and received quite a lot of attention for it as I was singing in Vietnamese but am as caucasian as they come. Whenever I was interviewed by reporters about this feat, I was ALWAYS asked what I thought about Vietnamese men (not offered one, just asked what I thought about them - so there is a gender difference). My stock answer was that I thought Vietnamese men were lovely but, being 1.7 meters, would be a "doi dua lech" (pair of unmatched chopsticks) if I got together with one. That always got a laugh and effectively deflected the question. Or so I thought. After a few of these interviews, I started getting mail - from all over Vietnam, from earnest young men who had read about me and wanted to meet me and, oh, by the way, they were taller than 1.7 meters... !
Rosemary Nguyen
From markustaussig@mac.com Fri Jul 16 09:08:09 2004
Date: Sat, 10 Jul 2004 09:38:29 +0700
From: Markus Taussig <markustaussig@mac.com>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Vietnam's younger generation
In thinking about Joe's question about the importance of money and immigration with regard to interest in foreigners, it's probably useful to consider the importance of money in the average Vietnamese woman's decision between possible Vietnamese male partners. My sense is that it is very important.
_______________________________
Markus D. Taussig
Private Sector Development Research
Mobile: (84) 903 25 8774
markustaussig@mac.com
http://homepage.mac.com/markustaussig/
On Jul 9, 2004, at 11:49 PM, Joe Hannah wrote:
From m.digregorio@fordfound.org Fri Jul 16 09:08:30 2004
Date: Sun, 11 Jul 2004 22:31:49 -0700
From: Michael DiGregorio <m.digregorio@fordfound.org>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: Vietnamese youth
Dear all,
Oscar and I were discussing conventions of narrative form - that is form criticism - as a means of parsing meaning within rituals yesterday. Within this conversation, I recounted an episode that occurring to me in a taxi from Noi Bai to Hanoi in 1998. The driver noted that I spoke Vietnamese and consequently went through the typical form of conversation that follows, ending with a question about whether or not I liked Vietnamese women. I didn't reply - at which he proceeded to recount the virtues of Vietnamese women. I'm sure most of you can imagine what these would be - faithful, serves their husband, economical, ....
The entire conversation was predictable up to this point.
So I asked about his wife. He said he was divorced. I asked what happened. He said his wife met a German man, dumped him (her husband) and took off for Germany with their child. Not much said in the cab after that.
After this incident, I came to ask myself whether this typical banter had any meaning at all, whether it was not just some narrative form intended to present Vietnam as worthy of recognition in some way. I think this is probably a fairly common subtext of these conversations because 1) most parents would not greet their daughter's proclamation of love to a Mr. West with joy, and 2) none of these "Vietnamese women are great" conversations has ever led to a proposition to visit a brothel.
Mike
Michael DiGregorio, PhD
Program Officer
Arts & Culture, Education & Scholarship
The Ford Foundation
198 Tran Quang Khai Street, Suites 1502-4
Hanoi, Vietnam
Tel: 84-4-934-9766
Fax: 84-4-934-9765
From bodemer@hawaii.edu Fri Jul 16 09:08:36 2004
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 19:07:40 +0700
From: Margaret Barnhill Bodemer <bodemer@hawaii.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: proposition discussion (formerly Vietnamese youth)
It surprises me in this discussion, following Gino and Dr.Tai's comments, that no woman on the list has chimed in about experience in Vietnam being offered (jokingly or not) a boyfriend/husband in Vietnam. For me, the most memorable was one older woman who said to me last year in Hanoi: "If you are interested in Vietnamese history and culture, you should marry a Vietnamese to know more about those things." Further, when I stated that I'm already married, she replied - "yes, but your husband is not in Vietnam is he? So, while you are here..."
In reference to Joe's and others queries re: exoticization of western men in VN, I think those specific cases may also have to do with being a Vietnamese-speaking 'westerner'..?
aloha,
Margaret Barnhill Bodemer
PhD Student, Department of Anthropology,
University of Hawai'i, Manoa
From Minna.Hakkarainen@Helsinki.Fi Fri Jul 16 09:08:41 2004
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:55:22 +0300
From: Minna Hakkarainen <Minna.Hakkarainen@Helsinki.Fi>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: proposition discussion (formerly Vietnamese youth)
After Margaret's message I cannot help telling this: When I have been in Vietnam and have told people that I have a Vietnamese husband I have never heard any comments, like "oh aren't they lovely and reliable.." Instead, I have heard spontanious comments (coming from women) like: "A Vietnamese husband! (then silence) – You must be a brave person!"
On other occasions, when talking about Vietnamese husbands, women mainly complain how tired they are because their Vietnamese husbands don't offer them any help with household work. "They just enjoy themselves and do what they want." According to one group of women I met in March, there is no difference between educated and non-educated Vietnamese men. "They are all the same!" And faithfullness doesn't seem to be the strongest point of Vietnamese husbands, at least if you listen to the women's stories.
So no wonder, no one starts a conversation offering Western women a Vietnamese boyfriend :)
minna hakkarainen
From jhannah@u.washington.edu Fri Jul 16 09:08:45 2004
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 06:24:40 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Hannah <jhannah@u.washington.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: proposition discussion (formerly Vietnamese youth)
Of possible interest: I am told by a reliable Hanoian source from the international NGO community (well-versed in the commercial sex trade) that there is a small street just north of the old quarter in Hanoi famous for its young male prostitutes. While that is not surprising, she went on to tell me that some of these prostitutes specialize in serving middle-class, middle-aged women. I had not heard of this form of commerical sex in Vietnam before.
Joe Hannah
University of Washington, Seattle
From gclchew@yahoo.co.uk Fri Jul 16 09:08:56 2004
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 02:42:52 +0100 (BST)
From: "[iso-8859-1] Grace Chew" <gclchew@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Middle-aged woman and young Vietnamese men
It seems thare is a story in the Sunday Times, Singapore, of a Singaporean "tai-tai" who specifically wants to marry young Vietnamese men in their 20s and has dated a few of them. "Tai-tai" is a term borrowed from Chinese used in SG to refer to a well-off married woman who does not need to work to support the family. The "tai-tai" in the story is in her 50s and is widowed. ( I am waiting for the rest of the story to be faxed to me).
I have been proferred "good advice" regarding marriage partners many times in VN, since 1997. Many of them came from men, whose positive stereotypes of themselves are: "most faithful(in the world)","chieu vo" (pleasing to their wives), and "marry me"('me', the men who were talking to me at that time, regardless of their marital status), etc. The most recent one (2003) came from an old man who gave the reason "vi chong Viet Nam yeu vo yeu con" (because Vietnamese men love their wives and children". One of the young ladies I met in 1997 also advised against marrying Vietnamese men because "Vietnamese men are spendthrifts". She added that her husband was one such men.
=====
Grace
From sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca Fri Jul 16 09:09:09 2004
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 21:15:30 -0600
From: VINH Sinh <sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Middle-aged woman and young Vietnamese men
==> I found Grace's piece of information interesting. It reminds me of a similar story in Japan.
A female Japanese writer, named Iwashita (I forgot her first name) gained popularity with her non-fictional work (published about two years ago?) in which she related her affair with a certain Vietnamese man (she is a divorce'e and he is a married man). It looks as if under the influence of Iwashita's work, Vietnamese men are known to be " kawaii " (cute) among certain group of Japanese women.
VINH Sinh
From nvsuu@yahoo.com Fri Jul 16 09:09:12 2004
Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:22:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nguyen Van Suu <nvsuu@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: proposition discussion (formerly Vietnamese youth)
Dear list,
I have an western female friend, and we had various conversations with both male and female Vietnamese. I am not surprised when many of them often took "marriage, husband and children" as one of the common topics to talk with her, like whether she is married, what does her husband do, and how many children she has. When they were informed that she is still single some peoples asked whether she wants to marry a Vietnamese man. By that time, I could see that some people said so just to continue the conversation. However, in a few cases, they were serious about this question. Once, I heard one female Vietnamese even wanted to be Miss Match for her, i.e. trying to bring her into sentimental relationships with a Vietnamese man.
I think many Vietnamese men do not see housework is their job. Some of my male friends sometimes have to cook for the family, however, others who do not have to cook often take this as a pride over those who have to cook. This perception seems to decrease today though. In additon, I do think that many Vietnamese men think and care a lot about their families, especially about their wives, children, and parents.
Suu
From lchiu@umich.edu Fri Jul 16 09:10:42 2004
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:31:44 +0200
From: Lily Chiu <lchiu@umich.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: Vietnamese youth
I also want to add to Rosemary Nguyen’s observation that it is not only foreign males who are propositioned or asked “lay chong/lay vo chua”. Despite being an Asian female (or perhaps because of it), during my time in VN I was offered no less than three outright marriage proposals by Vietnamese men when it was known that I was unmarried. I certainly understood the question of “lay chong chua?” to be a social convention and no more than a conversation opener, usually being the second question asked of a young woman (the first being her age), no matter what race the woman (or man) is. However, the direct progression from finding out that the addressee is single to asking if s/he would like a boyfriend/girlfriend, or even husband/wife seems to be (in my experience and from hearing what all of you have had to say) particular only to situations in which the addressee is a foreigner or Viet kieu.
I certainly agree that in most situations Vietnamese women are victims of sexual commodification when they are offered to foreign men either as prostitutes (by a pimp) or even as potential wives (by the woman’s family), but if the offer is accepted it is a sign that the women are, as Gayle Rubin argues in her article “The Traffic in Women: Notes on the 'Political Economy' of Sex”, commodities to be traded between men. I know of many instances in which Vietnamese women are used in this way in business transactions between Vietnamese and foreign businessmen (i.e. bia om girls). However, this is not solely a VN foreign issue, as certainly women have long been offered as “markers of hospitality” in business deals in Asia, as well as the West.
In analysing or discussing long-term relationships between Vietnamese and foreigners, I believe that the differences in race, gender, economic background, and class must all be taken into account. I’ve heard many stories about Western (white) males being offered Vietnamese women; how about the reverse? Have many white women been proposed to (or hit on) by Vietnamese men? So far I’ve only heard of Viet Kieu or other Asian women being asked if they want to be in a relationship with Vietnamese men? If this is the case, certainly race would be a key factor in a gender-reversed proposition. Anyone have any stories to share?
Lily Chiu
Visiting Assistant Professor
Hampshire College
Amherst, MA 01002
From lchiu@umich.edu Fri Jul 16 09:10:47 2004
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 14:55:12 +0200
From: Lily Chiu <lchiu@umich.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: proposition discussion (formerly Vietnamese youth)
Oops, sorry, I should have read the rest of my VSG messages before replying to an earlier one. It^Òs fascinating to read this discussion about the image of Vietnamese males from different cultural and racial perspectives and the differing reactions people have when presented with a Vietnamese male - Western (white) female relationship.
Lily Chiu
Visiting Assistant Professor
Hampshire College
Amherst, MA 01002
From hhtai@fas.harvard.edu Fri Jul 16 09:10:50 2004
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:36:20 -0400
From: Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: proposition discussion (formerly Vietnamese youth)
Re:
Offering women as markers of hospitality:
As Lily points out, this is not unique to VN, nor is it linked to the new market economy, though it may have become more widespread and visible. In fact, I recall an article by Martin Bernal which appeared in 1972 in which he described a visit to Hanoi. He noted that there was no money economy, so there was no bribing as commonly understood, but women were sometimes pressured by their bosses to offer their services to even higher bosses or guests of their bosses. I was also told that Le Duc Tho had a hotel which offered the services of young women to guests. This gave LDT quite a bit of leverage on those guests.
Hue-Tam
From ProschanF@folklife.si.edu Fri Jul 16 09:10:55 2004
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 09:53:42 -0400
From: Frank Proschan <ProschanF@folklife.si.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: proposition discussion (or, nothing new under the sun...)
This whole discussion recapitulates in a way the observations of the earliest European travelers to Vietnam such as Dampier, who in 1688 remarked that the "Custom among them of buying Wives, easily degenerates into that other of hiring Misses, and gives great Liberty to the young Women, who offer themselves of their own accord to any Strangers, who will go to their Price....Even the great Men of Tonquin will offer their Daughters to the Merchants and Officers" (Dampier 1906[1688], 1:599). Similarly Barrow notes in 1806 that "permitting young women to dispose of personal favours, for the purpose of enabling them to procure articles of the first necessity for themselves or their families, is sanctioned by the Cochinchinese without any limitation as to age, condition, or object. Neither the husband nor the father seems to have any scruples in abandoning the wife or the daughter to her gallant" (Barrow 1806:306-7).
Barrow, John Sir. 1975 [1806]. A voyage to Cochinchina, in the years 1792 and 1793: to which is annexed an account of a journey made in the years 1801 and 1802, to the residence of the chief of the Booshuana nation. Kuala Lumpur; New York: Oxford University Press. Reprint of 1806 edition, London: T. Cadell & W. Davies.
Dampier, William. 1906. Dampier's Voyages. London: Grant Richards.
(There's another contemporaneous statement like Dampier's about men offering their daughters to visitors, but I don't have it at hand.) Tam Tai is right to situate this "as markers of hospitality" to strangers--strangers, moreover, who are often perceived to be so hopeless and helpless that they cannot take responsibility for finding their own affectional partners. Haven't all of us who are visitors to Vietnam been embarrassed or discomfited by the host or table-mate who insists on peeling our shrimp or rolling our goi cuon, despite our own arrogant conceit that we are perfectly competent to feed ourselves? The offer of matchmaking/introduction services is, then, not unlike peeling shrimp for the culturally inept foreigner. It might also happen to distinguished (Vietnamese) guests, but perhaps less likely since they are presumed to be culturally at home (and able to ask or find for themselves, if they are looking for love).
Yrs,
Frank Proschan
Save Our Sounds
From jhannah@u.washington.edu Fri Jul 16 09:10:59 2004
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 07:31:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Hannah <jhannah@u.washington.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: proposition discussion (formerly Vietnamese youth)
Markers of hospitality -- and power:
For many years now (perhaps from time immemorial) it seems to be the practice that when cadre from a higher administrative level (Central or Tinh) visit the lower levels (Tinh or Huyen) on government business, the functionaries at the lower level will treat them to some "down-time" at a bia-om or a brothel. This is sometimes deemed necessary to ensure that the visit by the superiors is "vui," and the subsequent report is favorable. It is also seen as one of the perks of the job.
(I am one of those who beleive that cadre who make such trips may be a vastly under-tested, under-reported at-risk population for HIV-AIDS and other STDs. Their wives are in jeapordy also, of course. But that's another thread.)
Joe Hannah
From sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca Fri Jul 16 09:11:03 2004
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 08:39:41 -0600
From: VINH Sinh <sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: proposition discussion (formerly Vietnamese youth)
I would agree that "offering women" could be seen as a marker of hospitality. The example Hue Tam gave, however, could be considered/interpreted also as a "my~ nha^n ke^' " i.e. "using a pretty woman in order to ensnare a person" -- a trick that is still widely practised, I suppose, all over the world. It is almost an essential part in James Bond films.
Take it for granted that there are various motivations/drives among match-makers in Vietnam and elsewhere, yet the readiness/desire/urge to become a match-maker/go-between is more conspicuous in Vietnam than, say, in North America; and in Vietnam match-making could be, I believe, a mark/token of hospitality (for good or for bad is not the question here).
Having lived mainly overseas in the past 40 years, and still immersed in Vietnamese cultural milieu, I am amazed by the fact that someone could be so ready to become a match-maker in Vietnam (I am saying among Vietnamese).
To act as a match-maker/go-between in Vietnamese, as you know, is called "la`m mai/la`m mo^'i. There is this saying in Vietnamese: "á»^Þ Ä^Ñá»^Ýi có 4 cái ngu : là m mai, Ä^Ñợ nợ, vát cu, cầm chầu". In this saying, among the 4 most stupid things that one might be doing in the world, the act of match-making/go-between is listed on top of the list -- no doubt to admonish those who have too strong this urge.
Having said so, I do believe that the sociology/psychology of match-making in Vietnam is a topic that calls for serious studies.
VINH Sinh
From hhtai@fas.harvard.edu Fri Jul 16 09:11:10 2004
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:17:29 -0400
From: Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: proposition discussion (formerly Vietnamese youth)
The Le Duc Tho example was definitely a "my nhan ke". Supposedly, he used it to great effect, I remember vividly the passage from Dampierre quoted by Frank. It does not seem things have changed much since!
As for lam mai, there seems to be a vast network of families in N. America who take note of the young people of marriageable age. Quite a bit of chitchat concerns who would be a suitable mate for whom, never mind that the young people in question do not know each other. I agree with Vinh Sinh that all this could be a great research topic, similar to what has been done for Japan.
Hue-Tam
From h-nguyen@northwestern.edu Fri Jul 16 09:11:13 2004
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 10:17:52 -0500
From: Thanh Nguyen <h-nguyen@northwestern.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: proposition discussion (or, nothing new under the sun...)
WHile the offering of Vietnamese women might be termed as "markers of hospitality" i think it is extremely dangerous to categorize this practice as simply another cultural custom on the same level and nature as offering food in vietnamese tradition. While I do agree that it dates back far and is certainly a old-age custom, the economy of selling and trading women has become much more complex as vietnamese society faces increasing rates of women and children sold into human trafficking rings- I would certainly argue that marriage in vietnam has become inextricably interwoven with conditions of vietnam's political economy...and that the increasing patterns of outmarriage between vietnamese rural women and taiwanese men (and the like) are indicative of socioeconomic inequality as well as mutual misconceptions of the "other"- that vietnamese women are more traditional while there are conceptions of taiwanese men as wealthier, more modern, and somehow less traditional than vietnamese men- the reality often has been that the men turn out to be taiwanese peasants from rural areas.
on a side note- whenever i am in vietnam...women at hair salons and beauty spas are constantly asking me if i know any western men (american or viet kieu) that i can introduce them to!
-THanh Nguyen
From sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca Fri Jul 16 09:11:28 2004
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:04:29 -0600
From: VINH Sinh <sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Vietnamese youth
==> The first Vietnamese man who wrote about Western women is probably the great, but tragic, poet Cao Bá Quát (Cao Ba' Qua't, 1809-1854).
Until the early 20th century, Vietnamese scholars wrote in Chinese characters (and sometimes chu+~ No^m). Like Chinese scholars, Vietnamese [male] scholars were shy of writing on personal matters, particularly about women, let alone Western women. Cao Ba' Qua't was indeed unique in that sense.
Many of Cao Ba' Qua't's poems were written in Chinese characters. The poem from which we can get a glimpse of his views of Western women is entitled Du+o+ng phu. ha`nh. "Du+o+ng phu." (Yangfu in Chinese) is Western women, and ha`nh
(xing) is a form of Chinese poetry. Cao wrote this poem when he was member of a official mission dispatched by Emperor Thie^.u Tri. to Singapore and other parts of the Malacca Straits in 1854. In this poem, Cao described the natural/uninhibited manners/behavior of a Western lady with her husband on a boat anchoring next to his in Singapore.
The above poem can be found in _Cao Chu Thần thi tap_(Anthology of Cao Ba' Qua't's Poetry, Chu Tha^`n is Cao's pen name)and a brief account of Cao Ba' Qua't's life is available in Dai Nam Liet Truyen, vol. 4,
VINH Sinh
From sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca Fri Jul 16 09:11:31 2004
Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 17:25:59 -0600
From: VINH Sinh <sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Vietnamese youth
I made a mistake in my previous mail. The official mission of which Cao Ba Quat was a member, was dispatched to the Malacca Straits in 1844 (not in 1854 as I wrote).
VINH Sinh
From keyes@u.washington.edu Fri Jul 16 09:12:03 2004
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:24:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: keyes@u.washington.edu
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: Vietnamese youth
Mike's experience is one that I have had numerous times in Thailand. When taxi drivers find I speak Thai (and especially when I start speaking Lao when I ascertain that the driver is from NE Thailand -- where most come from), I am often asked if I have a Thai wife. When I tell them my wife is a farang (a Westerner), I am often asked why I don't also have a Thai wife as well. I have even on one occasion been asked these questions with my wife also in the taxi. Like Mike I have never had a taxi driver actually propose setting up a relationship, even with a prostitute.
What is happening in Thailand with what are called 'mia farang' -- Thai wives of foreigners -- might provide a clue as to what is also happening in Vietnam. In NE Thailand there are whole villages that have become involved -- through internet and email exchanges -- is promoting their women as potential wives for foreigners. (I have also heard the same is happening in the Philippines.) What is perhaps most unusual is that quite a number of foreign husbands come to live in the villages of their Thai wives. A recent Thai newspaper reported that such men find such villages to offer more meaningful social relationships than in their home communities. Johnson, the man beheaded recently in Saudi Arabia, was such a man. He and his wife had built a house in her village in the NE to which they intended to move after his retirement at the end of this year. Much attention was given to this sad story in the Thai media.
In Thailand so many women are either choosing not to marry at all (Thailand has the highest percentage of such women of any country in Asia) or to marry foreigners that many Thai young men are now finding it difficult to find spouses. To my knowledge, no one had yet undertaken research on such men.
What my comparisons with Thailand suggest is that Vietnamese youth, even outside the cities, are increasingly aware of themselves as actors in a globalized world just as is the case for youth in neighboring countries.
Biff
(Charles Keyes)
had thought Thailand was rather
From hhtai@fas.harvard.edu Fri Jul 16 09:12:06 2004
Date: Wed, 14 Jul 2004 14:21:27 -0400
From: Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Vietnamese youth
The practice of "marrying" foreigners is also of long standing in VN. During the colonial period, such women would be called "Me Tay". Vu Trong Phung wrote a whole reportage called "Ky Nghe Lay Tay," likening the practice to an industry (ky nghe). The French, on the other hand, coined the word "s'encongayer" (based on con gai) to describe the practice. Until 1910, when it was deemed safe enough to bring European women to Indochina, the 'me tay' were important cultural go-betweens. The arrival of European women helped create French enclaves that isolated themselves from the larger society.
To look at things from the opposite perspective, I, having married a foreigner, am sometimes asked, pityingly, why on earth I did so.
Hue-Tam
Date: Sun, 18 Jul 2004 00:17:46 +0700
From: Kirsten Endres <kirsten.endres@fpt.vn>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Vietnamese youth
The discussion might have taken a different turn by now, but as Suu has already hinted at it, I might as well tell the story in full. My standard answer to Vietnamese women urging me to get a husband is "well, then why don't you find me one!". As I have long passed the best-before-date, everyone usually takes this as the joke I intended. With one exception, and here's the story: Long after this teasing conversation, Mrs. T. once invited me for a family dinner. When I arrived at her house, I realized I was not the only guest - the other one was a charming policeman named D. Only then it dawned on me what this invitation was possibly all about, and out of sheer curiosity I decided to follow through and see what would happen. It was a pleasant dinner, maybe the only one ever where the topic of marriage etc. was never brought up. A few days later, Mrs. T. slipped into my office with an air of conspiracy and asked me for my date of birth. I had the strong feeling that this meant horoscopes were about to be checked, but again I didn't ask and wasn't told what was going on behind the scenes. For a couple weeks nothing else happened, and I assumed that the horoscopes had probably not matched. But then one day Mrs. T. hushedly slipped a handwritten note into my hand. It read: "Mr. D. has applied at his unit for permission to marry a foreigner, but it was denied because it is impossible to check a foreigners' background. He likes you very much, but if he were to marry you, he would have to give up his job. I am very sorry." This unexpected turn of events left me completely dumbfounded!
Possible interpretations:
1) (feminist) Vietnamese think a single woman over 40 must gladly consent to anybody's proposal, so she doesn't need to be courted first.
2) (pragmatic) Vietnamese first secure the aim on a rational basis (i.e. check background etc.), and only then (maybe) follow through with a few other essential steps that might or might not lead to it.
3) (cultural) Mr. D. had no intention of getting married to start with, and it was all about keeping the good relations with Mrs. T. and her family... In any case, I never saw him again, and Mrs. T. has fortunatley given up on finding me a husband.