Old Vietnamese Saying
From jhannah@u.washington.edu Fri Jun 18 10:43:34 2004
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 07:44:29 -0700 (PDT)
From: Joe Hannah <jhannah@u.washington.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: "Old Vietnamese Saying"
Dear list,
I am (once again) confronted with an "old Vietnamese saying" in a book by a non-Vietnamese-speaking author, and I wonder if anyone can provide the correct Vietnamese words:
"Trying to stop a market is like trying to stop a river."
This is found in Templer's "Shadows and Wind: A View of Modern Vietnam."
Thanks for any help you can give,
Joe Hannah
From adam@aduki.com.au Fri Jun 18 10:43:39 2004
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 09:38:21 +1000
From: "Adam @ Aduki" <adam@aduki.com.au>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: "Old Vietnamese Saying"
Seems to me the sort of OVS you make up to watch the monkey write it down and go away happy. Heh heh.
Especially when you can both dam a river and stop markets ... Yet ...clearly inspired by the Daoist tendency to mix naturist metaphor within an ongoing discourse referential to both the social as constructed and as practiced, or rather, as was often refered to by Kant in his earlier work, the doing of praxis. However in a more resonating and less essentialistically articulated moment (of the development of the Idea as such, but yet becoming) ...
As David Marr once remarked ... in a radical conjecture, daringly and teasingly confronting the Real ...
As a German Ambassador once said, I can see how they plan the market, but how will they market the plan?
Adam
Website: www.aduki.com.au
Contact details:
PO Box 2096, Ivanhoe E,
Melbourne Vic 3079, AUSTRALIA
Tel 61 3 9497 3493; Fax 61 3 9497 4856
From bodemer@hawaii.edu Fri Jun 18 10:43:44 2004
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 14:15:54 -1000
From: Margaret Barnhill Bodemer <bodemer@hawaii.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: "Old Vietnamese Saying"
Aloha Joe and list,
these 'sayings' are tricky, especially when the author does not provide a Vietnamese equivalent. I assume you already asked Vietnamese friends if they've heard of it.
Maybe helpful to consult several tuc ngu/thanh ngu dictionaries that can be found in VN bookstores (UW library might have some too). Sometimes you can find Anh-Viet ones, where you can look up a tuc ngu/thanh ngu in English and find a Vietnamese equivalent. Some of these are designed to translate English/American sayings for Vietnamese, while others are designed for (more helpful for your case) looking up English translations for Vietnamese sayings/proverbs.
The only one that I've got with me now is a Vietnamese dictionary of proverbs/sayings (which explains Viet sayings/proverbs in Vietnamese)- it is usually pretty good. The authors/editors are Vu Dung, Vu thuy Anh, Vu Quang Hao (2000): Tu Dien Thanh Ngu va Tuc Ngu Viet Nam (title), (Nha Xuat Ban Van Hoa). Trying to guess what might come first in "Trying to stop a market is like trying to stop a river"; I checked all entries starting with any variant of
1) 'to try' or 'attempt': co/gang/no/thu
2) market (cho, hop)
3) stop (dung lai, ngung)
4) river (song)
But unfortunately I didn't find anything that seemed similar to the meaning of your saying. Hope someone else can offer you more help!!!
Cheers, Maggie Bodemer
===========================
Margaret Barnhill Bodemer
PhD Student, Department of Anthropology,
University of Hawai'i, Manoa
From nvsuu@yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 10:44:01 2004
Date: Thu, 10 Jun 2004 17:37:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nguyen Van Suu <nvsuu@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: "Old Vietnamese Saying"
Dear Aloha Joe and people,
I think "Trying to stop a market is like trying to stop a river" might be a translation of the Vietnamese "ngan song cam cho."
Cheers,
Suu
From NLan@ifc.org Fri Jun 18 10:44:04 2004
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 08:43:34 +0700
From: Lan Van Nguyen <NLan@ifc.org>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: "Old Vietnamese Saying"
Hi Joe
I've never heard of any Vietnamese saying sounds like "Trying to stop a market is like trying to stop a river." Yes, there is a saying "Ngan song cam cho", but its meaning is completely different. Maybe "Trying to stop a market is like trying to stop a river" is the author's translation (but completely wrong) of "Ngan song cam cho"
Cheers,
Lan
From adam@aduki.com.au Fri Jun 18 10:44:13 2004
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 22:28:40 +1000
From: "Adam @ Aduki" <adam@aduki.com.au>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: "Old Vietnamese Saying"
Ngan song cam cho is in fact a technical term used by Vietnamese economists to refer to sub-optimal institutional design that inhibits emergence of suitably integrated national markets, thus moving the dynamic growth path away from its economic potential. As such, it lacks any of the irony clearly intended by the putative source of the English phrase, which is odd given that Cassandra was clearly removed some time ago from the pantheon of patron saints of Vietnamese economists and replaced by a dim yet clearly recognisable image of Puck.
As a Vietnamese colleague once said, the men come to these places and ask for data, we give it to them, but sometimes we forget to take a copy.
Adam
Website: www.aduki.com.au
Contact details:
PO Box 2096, Ivanhoe E,
Melbourne Vic 3079, AUSTRALIA
Tel 61 3 9497 3493; Fax 61 3 9497 4856
From NLan@ifc.org Fri Jun 18 10:44:23 2004
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 09:49:58 +0700
From: Lan Van Nguyen <NLan@ifc.org>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: "Old Vietnamese Saying"
Below is my understanding of the term which I replied to Joe Hannah yesterday.
"Ngan song" does not mean "stop a river", but literally "partition" the river into two, to ban the two communities living on the two sides of the river from traveling, exchanging goods and so on. " Cam cho" means to ban a market or "stop a market" if you like (people are not allowed to exchange goods freely in a market) "Ngan song" and "cam cho" have the same meaning and supplement each other. "Ngan song cam cho" was popular during the centrally planed period. At time, people were not allowed to take goods, say 15 kg of rice, from one province to another.
Lan,
From NLan@ifc.org Fri Jun 18 10:44:26 2004
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 10:10:24 +0700
From: Lan Van Nguyen <NLan@ifc.org>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: "Old Vietnamese Saying"
I believe that the term has been used long, long ago. "Ngan song cam cho" was popular and perhaps used more frequently during the centrally planned period though
Lan
From nvsuu@yahoo.com Fri Jun 18 10:44:29 2004
Date: Fri, 11 Jun 2004 20:51:52 -0700 (PDT)
From: Nguyen Van Suu <nvsuu@yahoo.com>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: "Old Vietnamese Saying"
In my conversations with villagers in the Red River delta, I sometimes heard they used "ngan song cam cho" to refer to the state's restrictions and control over the market during the period of collectivization. So Lan's remark is right.
I would add that "ngan song" literally means an act that controls the river. In another meaning (figurative meaning), "ngan song" is the action that tries to control the natural rule, therefore must be difficult. Similarly, literally, "cam cho" means an act that tries to control a market or markets, however, it also has another meaning, i.e. the action that tries to control the market rule. In that sense, I move forthwards to say that the translation of the meaning of "ngan song cam cho" might be "trying to stop a market is like trying to stop a river," because both "ngan song" and "cam cho" are difficult works and they might cause consequences.
Suu
From NLan@ifc.org Fri Jun 18 10:44:33 2004
Date: Sat, 12 Jun 2004 11:27:33 +0700
From: Lan Van Nguyen <NLan@ifc.org>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: "Old Vietnamese Saying"
Here is the explanation of "ngan song cam cho" from LacViet dictionary: "Ngan song cam cho" means: "Forbid, not allow (to cross the river and open up market); close door policy"
So "ngan song" has nothing to do with stop/block the river's flow. And I don't think "ngan song cam cho" has any Lao Tu's philosophical flavor in it, although Lao Tu would surely oppose the "ngan song cam cho" way of governance
Lan
From tyt@fpt.vn Fri Jun 18 10:45:19 2004
Date: Mon, 14 Jun 2004 13:56:51 +0700
From: Toan <tyt@fpt.vn>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: "Old Vietnamese Saying"
As for myself, I believe:
- 'ngan song' means to barrier river-crossing. However, this has nothing to do with those who travel and have to cross a river. 'Ngan song' figuratively means to barrier traders who want to bring goods from a place to another to sell (and while doing that having to cross a river),
- 'cam cho' means to prohibit acts to buy and sell a certain goods at the marketplace,
- and 'ngan song cam cho' means to prohibit the free trading of a certain goods (which could only be traded and/or distributed by a limited number of authorized organizations.)
Thank you and warm regards,
Toan
tyt@fpt.vn