Thank You
From gclchew@yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 6 11:28:35 2004
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 15:08:56 +0100 (BST)
From: "[iso-8859-1] Grace Chew" <gclchew@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Thank you
There's too many topics about Vietnam that fascinate me and I can't help keeping quiet, especially when I am a member of this network - one of its kind on earth! I hope this will generate more comments, opinions, debates and interesting anecdotes than the previous topic/ sub-topics on Vietnamese youth and "birds-and-bees" a la Vietnamien:
" Nguyên Phuong Linh, commenting on the absence of a conventionalized thank you routine in Vietnamese, attributes this to the content orientation of Vietnamese, here reflecting the Buddhist philosophy that good works will be rewarded: “The content is more important than the form” (Nguyên Phuong Linh 1990: 43, cited in Clyne 1994: 188)
This suggests that different cultures have varying indices of stressing the more formal or the more content-based aspects through discourse."
Do you think Nguyen's reason is too simple, especially when you compare it with other cultures influenced by Buddhism?
=====
Grace
From hhtai@fas.harvard.edu Fri Aug 6 11:28:41 2004
Date: Wed, 28 Jul 2004 12:47:23 -0400
From: Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Thank you
Grace:
I don't really know what is meant by a conventionalized thank you routine. Could you elaborate? I take it that saying "cam on" is not what is meant here? Is there an example of what such a routine would involved?
I'd been under the impression that Vietnamese, like people from other countries of Asia perform elaborate thank yous. Visitors to my office from Vietnam and Asia more generally invariably bring a gift. Not so Americans. But I don't know what that has to do with Buddhism.
Hue-Tam
From gclchew@yahoo.co.uk Fri Aug 6 11:28:47 2004
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:39:29 +0100 (BST)
From: "[iso-8859-1] Grace Chew" <gclchew@yahoo.co.uk>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Cam on
Professor Tam,
"Cam on" is what is refered to here. An example of a conventionalised routine is:
A: Can I help you?
B: Is C at home?
A: No, but who are you?
B: I am C's friend. Can you tell C that I came? Please pass this to C. Thank you.
A: (possibly also utters) Thank you.
or at a shop:
Sales assistant: Do you need my help?
Customer: No, thank you. I'll just look around for a bit.
Sales assistant: Tell me when you need my help.
Customer: OK, thank you.
Some people think that Vietnamese don't say "cam on" or "xin loi" so often (here, I am focusing on "cam on"), and the reason Nguyen gave was Buddhism. I am wondering if it is too simplistic to use Buddhism as the reason, especially if we think of Japan and Thailand- the two countries which are also influenced by Buddhism- where "thank yous" seem to be heard more often. Of course, in some ways, it is a result of commercialisation and job training but putting aside these reasons, I am probing to see if there are other strategies that Vietnamese use? Yes, I can think of one such as, "address term + xin" without actually using "cam on". Also, if someone disagrees and say "address + xin" is seldom used, then what are the other possible reasons? Are Vietnamese more concerned about reciprocity of actions rather than using words, say for instance, like in traditional Indian culture etc...
I will read Tess' and Hoang's answers now.
Best,
From dot@unimelb.edu.au Fri Aug 6 11:28:58 2004
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 15:42:53 +1000
From: Tess Do <dot@unimelb.edu.au>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Thank you
Dear vsg,
I did notice when I first migrated to the West that Vietnamese people, including me at that time, do not say Thank You as often as the Westerners. Even today, I was told that, in Vietnam, one way to tell who is Viet Kieu and who is not, is how quickly and how frequently one says Thank You (or sometimes, Sorry).
I am not sure about the Buddhist influence in this regard. But I think that Vietnamese people do not say Thank You very often because:
1) among family members or close friends, thanking one another so very often would sound too formal, creating thus a distant between the speakers. For the Vietnamese people, to be far too polite (like thanking everyone so often) is considered as to be insincere (gia doi, khach sao, kieu cach, chot luoi dau moi). To have excellent communication skills (mom mieng deo?) may also be considered as such. In Vietnamese culture silence (or fewer words) and modesty are valued more than loud words.
2) older people or people in higher authority/position may not feel the need to say Thank You (or Sorry) to those they consider as minor or subaltern. To do so is to "step down" from their superior position (ha minh) because the minor /subaltern has an obligation or duty to serve them. Most Vietnamese parents in Vietnam in my time (some 30 years ago) would not say Thank You to their children and certainly not Sorry. Westernised parents living overseas do not have the same problem, I think. But to say in English, "sorry" or "thank you", is somehow easier and "lighter" than to say in Vietnamese "Cam on con" or "Xin loi con". I myself still feel very uneasy when my parents say Thank You or Sorry to me in Vietnamese. I feel as if they were not my parents any more, but some strangers. To serve or to do something nice for one's parents is a son/daughter's duty (bao hieu cha me), it is not considered as doing them a favour.
3) some people may think that, if someone thanks them quickly and tries to repay the debt ASAP, it means that this person may also want to "forget" the favour quickly. Returning a favour too quickly, in this case, is also seen as a sign of insincerity... meaning that, for a Vietnamese person, to receive a favour from someone is to be indebted for life. One can never really repay it all. The person giving the favour can keep repeating what he has done as long as he likes and expect the other to show him unfailing gratitude (mang on suot doi). Favour and debt that occur during one's life time can also be carried on until the few next generations.
Best,
Tess Do
From dieuhien@u.washington.edu Fri Aug 6 11:29:18 2004
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 02:11:10 -0700 (PDT)
From: Hoang t. Dieu-Hien <dieuhien@u.washington.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Thank you
Dear list members,
I agree with Tess 100%.
Scholars who work on cross-cultural issues sometimes divide cultures into low-context and high-context groups. American culture is a good example of a low-context culture where words are meant more literally by the sender of a message and are interpreted more literally by the receiver. Therefore, feedback such as "Thank you," "Sorry," "Good job," "Excellent," etc. are given immediately after a particular behavior is performed. Except in extraordinary cases, these feedbacks often mean the end of feedback from a certain person/group regarding a certain behavior.
Vietnamese culture, however, is a high-context culture where appreciation of a certain gesture requires acknowledgement by facial expressions (such as smiling), other gestures (such as nodding of the head), or concrete actions (such as reciprocating the "favor" or nice gesture) depending on the context of the interaction. This context includes the gravity of the gesture, the relationship between the people in that interaction, the circumstances of the interaction, etc. In a parent-child relationship, for example, the parent shows appreciation for the child's good behavior this afternoon at a luncheon by giving the child a special treat, or spending time with the child doing the child's favorite activity. A child's appreciation for mom's wonderful meal tonight might be finishing homework without being reminded, or other such actions that would please mom. Words in such relationship, as Tess said, are redundant, considered insincere, and will cause hurtful feelings.
Hope this helps.
Dieu-Hien
From quang@apassagetopeace.com Fri Aug 6 11:29:23 2004
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 08:16:52 -0700
From: Quang X. Pham <quang@apassagetopeace.com>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: Thank you (Saving Face and Saying Sorry)
Hello to all, I am new to this list so please be patient if I stumble or deviate from any protocol.
"Face" is very important to the Vietnamese people, men and women. Many seem to be very careful to avoid losing face or making others "lose face." Absence of negative answers is to negate conflicts or to avoid hurting other's feelings,. "Yes" sometimes means "No." A "Yes" may not be related to a positive answer, only a polite reply to avoid confrontation.
This leads me to my question. Does anyone know of any former Republic of Vietnam leader (s) who has (have) expressed regrets or apologies to what happened in April 1975? It doesn't matter if he/she is living outside the U.S. I am wrapping a book and a final chapter with the following theme, "What do you tell your children/grandchildren about South Vietnam, our old country and the war?" I have spoken to a dozen or so former government and military leaders. So far, blame is still rampant (at each other and at the U.S. for abandoning the RVN) and no one has accepted any responsibility. Several people have declined to be interviewed because I speak primarily English (and the manuscript is in English.) Regrettably, this "so-called" silence does not fill the void when the country is revisiting the Vietnam War and its relevance in our presidential candidate's backgrounds and what's happening in Iraq.
Any help in pointing me to previous statements of accepting blame/responsibility/regret would greatly be appreciative. A phone interview would be better (must be very soon.) Thank you.
Regards,
Quang X. Pham
www.apassagetopeace.com
A PASSAGE TO PEACE: My Father, the Marines and the Aftermath of Vietnam
- Coming Spring 2005 (Random House)
From hhtai@fas.harvard.edu Fri Aug 6 11:29:28 2004
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 10:59:01 -0400
From: Tam Tai <hhtai@fas.harvard.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: Thank you
Thanks to Tess for the detailed response to the original query. I probably should have thought up some of these points myself.
As someone who has spent most of her life outside Vietnam, I do find myself being what my sister calls "inappropriately polite." This includes saying cam on, xin loi to my inferiors (including herself and my niece and nephew who make fun of me) and especially saying Da to people younger than myself when I should be using the less polite U (ugh). The latter, however, is more an American speech trick of saying Yeah rather than yes, but sounding overly polite to Vietnamese ears. My grandfather, according to my mother, would never have considered that he should be apologizing to his children, including the few times he punished them for things they had not done (they should be grateful for having done right and for enduring his lectures!).
Politesse is, however, a matter of culture. I may say Please, Sorry, Thank you, more often than the ordinary Vietnamese, but unless I watch out, I have the American habit of offering things with just one hand instead of both. That is being impolite.
On the issue of gifts and gratitude, there is a body of literature on both China and Southeast Asia that is quite germane. Shaun Malarney has also written on gifts and prestations in relation to cam tinh. Tess is right that Vietnamese do not easily accept a favor (unless they expect a bribe!). Often, people would give us free services, including medical treatment, when they found out who my father was (especially when he was in prison under Diem). My mother then insisted on giving them a gift (sometimes costing more than the fee would have) because she did not want to be indebted to them.
Hue-Tam
From DNguyen@KQED.org Fri Aug 6 11:29:35 2004
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 11:02:08 -0700
From: Nguyen Qui Duc <DNguyen@KQED.org>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: Thank you (Saving Face and Saying Sorry)
Dai ta Ma Sanh Nhon made a big deal of it some 20 years ago publicly in San Jose. In the late 70s the Pentagon publ. a document with testimonies from former S. VN military and civilian leaders There may be an apology somewhere in there.
From sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca Fri Aug 6 11:29:39 2004
Date: Thu, 29 Jul 2004 13:28:53 -0600
From: VINH Sinh <sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: "Cam on" Culture and "Xin loi" Culture
Hi Grace,
I have an episode to share with you.
Last month, I was invited to chair a conference on "Tie^'ng Hue^', Ngu+o+`I Hue^', Va(n hoa' Hue^'", which was held as part of the 2004 Hue Festival. While in Hue, I visited a friend's house and my friend has a 8-year old boy. I brought for this boy a juvenile pictorial book as a gift. When I handed my small gift to the boy, he gave me a big smile and said to me in a typical Hue dialect : "Ui chao, su+o+'ng chu+a te^` !", which can roughly be translated into English as "Wow, what a delight/I'm delighted !". I never expected such a statement made by a kid of his age. Later on I found out that he is the cha'u ddi'ch to^n (the eldest son in the main family of a clan) of my friend's clan, so he is expected to behave as an adult (i.e. "to be in charge" in this case), in his behaviors as well as in his speech.
But the aspect that struck me most from his statement was the absence of the words "con ca'm o+n ba'c" (thank you, uncle ...), yet it was still very polite and highly pleasant. If he said to me "Con ca'm o+n ba'c" instead, I would not have had a chance to laugh and probably I would have to say something formal to him in return. In short, the experience would not have been such a pleasant one.
To change the subject a bit, you might be interested in knowing that in Japanese, the term "sumimasen", which primarily implies "I'm sorry" also has a "Thank you" connotation. People in Japan seem to use of "sumimasen" quite often, such that there is a saying, "if you think just saying sumimasen is sufficient, then why do we need the police !"
I remember that when I first came to Canada more than 32 years ago, I said "I'm sorry" quite often -- no doubt because of my 10 year-stay in Japan prior to that. A friendly Canadian lady of Irish origin in my department then kindly gave me this advice: "Sinh, don't say 'I'm sorry' too often, the folks here only use that expression for very specific situations. Just say "Thank you !". I followed her advice and began to use "Thank you !" in cases for which I would have used "I'm sorry" previously, and generally speaking, my daily conversations seemed to become smoother.
You may find the anthropologist Ruth Benedic's book _Chrysanthemum and the Sword_ of some interest. There is a chapter in the book which discusses the Japanese perception of "favor" (on in Japanese, o+n/a^n in Vietnamese) and various expressions related to it.
Cheers,
VINH Sinh
From ProschanF@folklife.si.edu Fri Aug 6 11:30:00 2004
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 05:45:32 -0400
From: Frank Proschan <ProschanF@folklife.si.edu>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: "Cam on" Culture and economy
This fascinating discussion of "thank you" now leaves me paralyzed by self-doubt--a veritable crisis of conscience. As one of those foreign language learners whose speech is marked by the gratuitous use of gratuity, the reckless overuse of politeness markers such as "cam on" when a server refills my water glass or "da vang" when I should just be grunting "u", I've always comforted myself by assuming my Vietnamese interlocutors would just cut me some slack as an ignorant foreigner. But now I wonder whether I may have been contributing inadvertently to what we might call politeness inflation. Some years ago, I was criticized for single-handedly making it impossible for Vietnamese to hail a xich-lo on Trang Tien street, because my extravagant overpayment of xich-lo drivers made them so picky they would no longer take passengers at the local rate. Now I fear I may be doing the same thing with politeness markers: has my flagrant and culturally inappropriate overuse of "cam on" somehow contributed to a massive inflation in the politeness economy? Will servers begin to expect thanks when they fill a glass or bring another dish? Will cashiers now think they are somehow entitled to a thank you when they return change from a purchase? I'd ask for forgiveness, but in this reckless inflationary spiral, maybe that "xin loi" would just add insult to injury. Or can I continue to take solace in the hope that Vietnamese will just take me, accurately, as an ignorant foreigner, and that my perturbation of the politeness economy will be local and ephemeral?
Thanking you, in advance, for your attention.
Frank Proschan
Save Our Sounds
postal mail:
Center for Folklife and Cultural Heritage
Smithsonian Institution
PO Box 37012
Victor Building Suite 4100, MRC 0953
Washington, DC 20013-7012
From sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca Fri Aug 6 11:30:04 2004
Date: Sat, 31 Jul 2004 12:28:12 -0600
From: VINH Sinh <sinh.vinh@ualberta.ca>
Reply-To: vsg@u.washington.edu
To: Vietnam Studies Group <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: "Cam on" Culture and economy
Hi Frank and all,
As students of Vietnam and Vietnamese culture, we are all dealing with/experiencing a changing Vietnam as Vietnam itself is being exposed to and becoming a part of a globalized world.
I suppose everyone of us in the forum has one's own stories in our experiences with the present-day Vietnam. At my end, having been living abroad in the past 41 years, I am amazed by the fact that when I go back to Vietnam, for some reasons I have never been seen as a Viet Kieu.
At the Tan Son Nhat Airport, I was onced asked : "Cam on» “Anh cong tac ve a?” (Are you a cadre coming back from a trip abroad ?). Or on a hot day some 20 years ago, I wore a short pant and tried to get on a xich lo, a man standing nearby laughed at me and said to his friend : "????, lam giong nhu Viet Kieu khong bang !" (????/Gosh, he is trying to act like a Viet Kieu!). Or one year, I took my son, who was born in Canada, to a water puppet show neaby Van Mieu in Hanoi (a temporary theater was set there at the time). When I told the lady at the entrance of the theater that I would like to buy two tickets for Viet Kieu (I thought I should be honest because at the time, the entrance tickets for Viet Kieu are higher than those for local people), she insisted that "there is only one Viet Kieu here [i.e., my son], and you [myself] are not a Viet Kieu, and because you are his guide (nguoi huong dan). And since you brought us a customer, so you don't have to buy your ticket !". As I did not wish to make any argument/clarification that might delay other clients, I accepted the way that I was told (i.e. I am a commercial guide for my son !)and saw the show free. In the process, I began to ponder a question : What elements in myself that make people in VN always think that I am not a Viet Kieu? To me, this has been a highly intriguing question indeed.
If you allow me to generalize, I would say that with respect to the terms such as "cam on/cám on" (thank you -- which literally means "I feel grateful [to you]), "xin loi" (I'm sorry/I beg your pardon/excuse me), chao mung (Welcome !, when receiving guests from afar), chuc mung (congratulations !), "ngon qua" (so delicious ! -- used spontaneously after tasting some good food), etc. , I feel that those who are more exposed to a globalized/modernized/Westerrnized life in Vietnam use them more often than those who are not (or less). Typically, they are those who live in big cities and meet foreigners often in their daily works. One may call these terms part of the formal language.
If I were a Vietnamese living Vietnam all my life, perhaps I would not be much conscious about the changing times reflected in daily language. I would take the things as they are. If I meet foreigners, like Frank, who say "cam on" to me more often than the local folks do, unconsciously I would appreciate the way they say to me. If I meet those who physically look like me, but use the formal language more often than people around me, I would make an educated guess that they have lived abroad for some time, i.e. they are Viet Kieu. If my daily business is related, one way or another, to foreigners and Viet Kieu, I might be able to tell who is a Viet Kieu instantly and intuitively, not only from their language, but also from their looks, their body language, etc. By the way, there is a fashion among the youth in big cities in VN to imitate the Viet Kieu -- behaving and talking like stereo-typed Viet Kieu. I heard that this fashion is gaining popularity. These teenagers would hang around hotel lobbies, restaurants, and coffee shops popular with foreigners and Viet Kieu.
The points I would like make is thus: there are two levels of language in Vietnamese, i.e. the informal one and the formal one.
Cam on is a part of the formal language. Chuc mung is another term which, I think, belongs to this category. Let me I explain my point a bit. In the past couple of years, every time I went back to Vietnam, whenever I have a chance I watched the game shows on the TV there (I watched them quite a lot in Canada too, I consider these programs as parts of my social studies). There is a TV game show in VN called Rong vang. I cannot stop laughing when I watch this program. To me, the language used by the MC (in this case Thanh Loc, a truly funny guy) is so new. He uses terms such as " Chuc mung ! " or "Chinh xac !" . You might say that these terms not not new at all, because one sees " Chuc mung" on the New Year cards (Chuc mung nam moi) or Wedding cards (Chuc mung co dau chu re), and " chinh xac " has long been used as "precise " for a long time. My point is that Chuc mung is recently also used as a spontaneous expression of " Congratulations !" and Chinh xac is now also used in the sense of that tersely-pronounced "Correct !" that we see in North American TV programs such as "You want (or Who wants ?) to become a billionaire ?" or "Jeopardy". It appears to me that TV shows such as "Rong vang" display highly distinct aspects of a globalized/Westernized/Americanized world, and as such, it is fascinating to see the interplay between of the old and the new of Vietnamese culture right on the stage. At home, I also have the Japanese NHK program, and I notice that Japanese version of "You want to become a billionaire" has a certain Japanese touch which is also highly interesting.
In short, I feel that the more Vietnamese society is integrated into a global world (for good or for bad is not the subject of my discussion here), the more formal terms such as "cam on", " chao mung ", "chuc mung ", etc. will be accepted and adopted for daily usage -- much in the same way that the term Chao (in chao ong/chao bac /chao anh/chao cháu) was borrowed from the Italian language in circa. 16th century and has now been completely integrated into the Vietnamese language. Yet there is another level of communication, i.e. the informal language. That level of communication is still very important, if not more important than the formal one, in the daily life of the Vietnamese.
Cheers,
VINH Sinh