On 1/4/06, Dan Duffy < dduffy@email.unc.edu> wrote:
Hi all,
How do Roman Catholics address a priest in Vietnamese? Does it vary by
region depending on how you address your father at home?
Do students call a teaching nun "chi", Sister, as English-speaking
students do, or do they call her "co" like any other woman teacher?
Do you call a Christian monk "tay" like a Buddhist one?
What do Baptists call each other? "Anh" and "chi", as English-speaking
ones often say "brother" and "sister"? If they do, does it differ any
way from normal address among peers in Vietnamese?
My field experience in these matters has been confusing.
Dan
On 1/4/06, Hoang t. Dieu-Hien <dieuhien@u.washington.edu> wrote:
Dan,
Catholist priests are addressed as <cha>. Many catholics would call a priest <cha> no matter what their relationships with him are. For examples, aunts, uncles, siblings,cousins may all call their priest nephew, brother and cousin <cha>. Parents may also do that in formal settings.
Nuns, however, are called <so+> (for soeur). Again, many catholics will refer to nuns as <so+> no matter what their relationships with her are: student-teacher, siblings, aunt/uncle-niece, cousins, etc.
Christian monks are <tha^`y>, like Buddhist monks. I am not quite certain about Baptists, but I believe in normal every day conversations they refer to each other as we Vietnamese normally do.
I would love to hear opinions from the list about the use of <soeur> instead of a Vietnamese term of address for nuns.
Happy New Year,
Hien
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:13:53 -0800
From: "Hoang t. Dieu-Hien" <dieuhien@u.washington.edu>
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Christian terms of address
Forgot one more term for nuns: <di\> as in <di\ phu+o+/c>. I believe this is a southern term. You may not hear northerners use it.
DH
Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:25:54 -0500
From: "Dan Duffy" <dduffy@email.unc.edu>
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Christian terms of address
Hien,
Thanks, that straightens me out.
To add to your question to the list about "soeur": what is the idiomatic
VN equivalent of the English phrase "the good sisters" or French "les
bonnes soeurs" to refer to a group of nuns, for example the nurses at an
RC hospital?
Dan
From: "Chung Nguyen" <Chung.Nguyen@umb.edu>
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Christian terms of address
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 16:11:02 -0500
I agree with DH's description. It's interesting that like DH I have no idea how Vietnamese Protestants use the terms, for there were very few Protestants in the city where I lived when I was still in Vietnam. I just like to add two minor comments.
The term "cha" (Father) is no longer as de riguer as it used to be in some cases. Because of the strong Confucian tradition, there has been lots of reaction among non-Catholics when the priest has prior family relationship. A while ago I met a Vietnamese priest who's a very close friend of a friend of mine. I was quite surprised to hear him calling himself "con" (son) when he spoke to my friend's mother. I later asked another priest about this. He admitted that he felt much better of his parents not calling him "cha."
The term "so+" (soeur) is, I think, quite interesting. It seems to be the best solution for a culturally delicate and difficult situation: "Me." (Mother as in Mother Superior) would be too awkward for the confucian ears, and there is no readily available Vietnamese equivalent. Hence, a completely new form of addressing, with no historical baggage of connotations or denotations, came into use.
Nguyen Ba Chung
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 08:44:54 +1100
From: "Jo.Vu" <Jo.Vu@vu.edu.au>
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Christian terms of address
In my own opinion, the mother calls her own son "cha" (Father), doesn't mean he is her father. She only refers to him by his "title". Even in a family, a wife would call her husband "dad" (father) especially in front of their children, as she refers to him by his role in the family.
Jo Chau Vu
From: "Chung Nguyen" <Chung.Nguyen@umb.edu>
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Christian terms of address
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 17:24:34 -0500
A simple word could become very complicated very quickly ! Is it the same word or only a homonym ? Or it is the same word but with a completely different meaning ?
I think the two cases are not quite the same. In Catholicism, "Father" does not simple mean a title, but indicates a level of religious relationship in terms of respect, obedience of the most profound kind. Hence the Vietnamese equivalent "Cha", theologically, should carry the same meaning, at least for the believers. It's a form of addressing that takes, supposedly, precedents over age, kinship, relationship, etc.
For how a wife calls her husband, or vice versa, is, I think, a matter of custom and endearment. She and her husband are in somewhat similar level in terms of age, privilege, social position, and to be viewed as such by the audience (although the "age" in the old days and today could vary widely). We do not expect her to use the same term for anyone not her husband, or someone twenty or thirty years younger. There is also a matter of reciprocity: the husband might call his wife "me./me. no' " (mother, his/her mother), "bu/ bu no'), etc. And for the audience, everyone understands that it's just a form of addressing, it does not mean that they have a father-daughter or mother-son relationship.The term does not change their relationship, and it is entirely optional.
In the first case, there is no option, no reciprocity, the question of age makes no difference, and there is an expectation, at least for the believers, a religious relationship, or for a non-believer, a level of respect comparable to one's superior if not father. And its' so viewed, at least by social custom, as such by the audience. As it is not optional, it does presume a socially predefined meaning.
Nguyen Ba Chung
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 14:50:48 -0800
From: "Hoang t. Dieu-Hien" <dieuhien@u.washington.edu>
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Christian terms of address
Yes, in deed, when catholics address their relative as <cha> or <so+>, they mean to show deference to the relative's station as a servant of God. How each priest or nun reacts depends on their own personality, sense of self, and his or her relationship with the other person. When my mother addressed a young priest, the same age as my youngest brother's, <cha>, he called himself <to^i> thus accepting the place where my mother had put him -- above her.
On the other hand, when I introduced my 3-year-old son to a cousin who is a priest, I asked my cousin what he would prefer to be called: <ba/c> or <cha>? He said without hesitation "Ba'c, of course. Cha is too distant. It's for other people. Your'e family." He calls himself <anh> to me, and <cha/u> to my parents, his aunt and uncle, even though my mother calls him <cha>. This cousin is only a few years younger than my mother.
Another term of address that you might be interested in, Dan, is <o^ng co^/> or <ba\ co^/>. Literally, these mean <great-grand-father> or <great-grand-mother>. However, for northern catholics, the parents of priests (and perhaps nuns) are elevated to great-grand-parent status. I don't know if southern catholics do the same.
Vietnamese protestants address their pastors <mu.c su+>, but as far as each other, I don't recall anything out of the ordinary. The sense I have when I am around Vietnamese. protestants is that there is less of a distance between the pastor and the congregration than with catholics. But then I suspect there are differences among different denominations.
As for soeur, anh Chung's comment makes sense to me. I wonder why <di\> does not have wider use?
Dieu-Hien
From: "B Dwyer" <anthrobfd@hotmail.com>
To: vsg@u.washington.edu
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Christian terms of address
Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 10:57:53 +0930
I think it also depends on the 'priest' involved too. I know a youngish guy
(>40) who is a priest who I called 'father' when first introduced to him -
but then I am RC by birth and education. But he said to call him by his
name. He is a drinking buddy of some friends and they refer to him by name
or anh, never cha etc. Also in relation to the sisters and nuns, I have met
a couple women who describe themselves and maintain that they are nuns (RC)
but are not officially in any order, though they attend services but
importantly hold themselves apart somehow stressing more formal terms of
contact etc.
Brett Dwyer
Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 23:06:37 -0500 (EST)
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Christian terms of address
From: "Hong Thuy Thi Bui" <hb76@cornell.edu>
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Hi Dan and list,
I just have a few things to add. It's right that catholic nuns called "so?" or "ma so?" (my sister - French, as in the expression "hie^`n nhu? ma so?" = "as gentle as a Catholic nun"), but a chief nun will be called "Me. be^` tre^n", litteraly is "superior mother". I've seen the term "di` phu?o?'c" before, but usually in old books or Vietnamese novels before 1975. The term "di phuoc" also heard in orphanage run by Catholic nuns, of course, chief of orphanage will be called "me. be^` tre^n" as well.
In terms of Evangelical Christian, no matter what denominations. They use
the term "o^ng mu.c su?" to address pastors. Pastor's wife will be called
"ba` mu.c su?" as well. There are terms such as "tha^`y" or "tha^`y
truye^`n dda.o" use to address deacon or evangelical preacher. Notice,
"tha^`y truye^`n dda.o" is qualify to preach at church or to teach
different groups in church as well, but he has not ordained as pastor.
Evangelical preacher's wife will be called "co^" only. There's also "co^
truye^`n da.o" for female evangelical preachers. However, there just a few
of them in Vietnam.
My Southern Baptist pastor addresses himself as "to^i" with older people in church, but with youth and young couples, he addresses himself as "mu.c su" and called us by name or "con" depends on how old we were.
best,
Hong Bui
From: "Chung Nguyen" <Chung.Nguyen@umb.edu>
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Christian terms of address
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 15:33:40 -0500
I think DH has just pointed out another factor in the equation that has no meaning in English but plays an important role in determining the nature of the relationship in the Vietnamese language.
Dan only asks the question about how they
are addressed, but not how the addressers calls
themselves vis-a-vis the addressees in return. In
English that question does not arise because the answer is
always the same: all addressees would refer to themselves
in turn as "I." In Vietnamese, that "I", however, has no exact
equivalent. Dependent upon age, gender, kinship,
relationship, level of intimacy, choice of distancing,
etc. it could be "to^i/anh/con/o^ng/ba`/ca^.u/cha'u/tao/ma`y, etc."
And each one of these denotes a completely different
kind of social relationship.
So to respond fully to Dan's question, the
answer could not simply be a one-to-one mapping
between English and Vietnamese (Father --> Cha) but a
one-to-two mapping (Father --> Cha/Con).
For ex., the equivalent of how a Vietnamese
catholic would address a priest, at least traditionally, would
not simply be "Cha" but "Cha/Con". That is, he would call
the priest "Father" and refer to himself as "con" (son) (And I
think this is the cause of the Confucian uneasinesss based on
its reverential treatment of Tam Cu+o+ng Ngu~ Thu+o+`ng
[The Three Bonds and the Five Cardinal Virtues]. Tam cuong
refers to the three fundamental relationships of society:
King-subjects/Parents-Children/Husband-Wife. In Catholic
theology, the Three Bonds are to be subsumed under this
new bond - Father-believer. This was one of the major
contentions during the Nguyen dynasty.)
It's also for this reason that for non-catholic Vietnamese,
they may address the priest as "Cha", but would refer to themselves
as "to^i" instead. "To^i", unlike "con", is an address form
indicating non-kinship and undefined or non-hierachy.
This schema would explain the issue Jo Chau
Vu raises much better: The wife might call her husband
"Cha" or the Husband his wife "Me.", but neither of
them would refer to themselves vis-a-vis the other as
"con." We just miss the second part of the equation.
And this in itself raises an interesting question. How should
we translate the westerm form of address in the case of the
parents and their son who is a priest into Vietnamese ?
Schematically, it could be done in two ways:
1) Father/I --> Cha/con
2) Father/I --> Cha/{tha^`y, me., etc.}
Since the "I" is inherently non-hierachical, on a purely
linguistic level, the second choice is perhaps the best
approximation. It is interesting that the first was chosen
instead. It is for this reason that it would be my guess that
for Vietnamese Protestants, it would be something similar
to the second choice.
Nguyen Ba Chung
Date: Thu, 5 Jan 2006 13:47:20 -0800 (PST)
From: "Joe Hannah" <jhannah@u.washington.edu>
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Christian terms of address
I like Anh Chung's characterization of the problem of rendering terms of address and pronouns. However, I would take it a step further and say that there is really a "two-four" (rahter than a one-two) relationshsip that must be considered, which in English looks like this:
speaker 1 and 2: you/I
In Vietnamese, however, it need not be symetrical. In DH's example of her mother addressing a priest much younger than herself, it would look something like:
DH's mother: cha / con
priest: ba` (or con) / to^i
This priest, as DH said, accepts (demands, reinforces) his superior position by using to^i to refer to himself.
On the other hand, when DH's mother speaks with her nephew the priest, who prefers to use familial terms while DH's mother prefers to use his priestly title, it looks different:
DH's mom: cha/ (?)
nephew priest: con/ba'c
As far as I know, this situation has never been resolve -- each speaker continues to use a different pair of pronouns when speaking to each other. It is in the negotiation of all four of these signifiers -- not just two -- that the relationship between the speakers is worked out. It has been one of my ongoing wonders as an observer in Vietnam and things Vietnamese to watch two strangers work out what to call each other... and themselves!
How to translate these subtle but vital social and linguistic cues is open for discusion!
Joe Hannah
From: "Chung Nguyen" <Chung.Nguyen@umb.edu>
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Christian terms of address
Date: Fri, 6 Jan 2006 10:03:35 -0500
Anh Joe and list:
I couldn't agree with Anh Joe more. I think you have summarized it best re: the dance of these four signifiers in determining the twist and turn nature of any social encounter - from total stranger to acquaintance to friends, disciples, non-kinship relatives, amours, etc.
And there is a parallel between the evolving choice of these personal pronouns in individual encounters with the evolving fixing of a foreign concept into the language, both in terms of its Vietnamese equivalent and possible form of address reference. Take, for example, the term "soeur." As an equivalent, you can use "ba` so+, di` so+, ba` phu+o+'c, di` phu+o+'c, nu+~ tu, etc". That's how far it has gone. You do not yet have a standard pronoun to accompany it, but the possibilities are already there - "di`, ba`, etc."
Take another one - "muc su." According to Hong Thuy Thi Bui, he's
referred to as "o^ng mu.c su+" by the congregation and refers to himself as
"to^i" (among older members) and "mu.c su+" (among younger ones). This is, I
believe, still in the process of evolvement because eventually a more
general short hand pronoun for "mu.c su+" would come into use. It's a long
process of negotiation between the old and the new, between an in-group
invention and a common usage in order to eventually become a generally
accepted part of the common culture.
I understand that at one time Phan Khoi was contracted to translate
the Bible. A brilliant idea because Phan is probably one of the most subtle
minds of his generation. It would be a fascinating opportunity to see how
Phan negotiates all these cultural twists and turns. But, unfortunately, I
don't know whatever happened to that contract for I have never come across a
version of his translation. Does anyone know ?
Nguyen Ba Chung
From: "Peter Hansen" <phansen@ourladys.org.au>
To: "'Vietnam Studies Group'" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: [Vsg] Christian terms of address
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:04:44 +1100
Dear List,
I was on holidays whilst this very interesting thread was winding out. As a priest who is not Vietnamese, I have to say that one of the most difficult cultural transitions for me was not so much in having elderly Vietnamese Catholics call me 'Cha' (which, after all, is no more than their English-speaking equivalents referring to me as 'Father'), but in their self-reference as 'con', which from my own cultural standpoint seemed totally incongruous. Even priests older than myself (but not bishops) would refer to me as 'Cha' and themselves as 'con'. Older bishops would call me 'con' and themselves 'toi', but newer bishops call me 'cha'.
For myself, I simply refuse to call anyone 'con', except my own 'con nuoi'. I call kids 'em' or 'chau', and many younger priests I know do the same. Adults, even in young twenties, (I'm late forties) I call 'Anh' or 'Chi', which sometimes meets with protestation, but only because they want to be called 'em', never 'con'.
Again, some younger Vietnamese priest acquaintances tell me that they too are struck by the incongruity of their parents calling them 'Cha' and themselves 'con' to their priest-son. They would always address their parents as 'Ba', 'Ma', and their parents would call them 'con' in domestic situations, but 'Cha' in Church situations.
A number of younger Viet-kieu Catholics tell me that they enjoy the fact that I try not to enforce power relationships through personal pronouns in the way that older clergy do.
As Joe said, everyone seems to cope adequately with this assymetrical nature of greeting and response.
Peter Hansen
From: "Peter Hansen" <phansen@ourladys.org.au>
To: "'Vietnam Studies Group'" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: [Vsg] Christian terms of address
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:13:56 +1100
I was in a Catholic orphanage this past week where the kids referred to the sisters as 'di'. The kids weren't Catholic, but knew who the sisters were. It's possible that this showed the level of affectionate familiarity between them; on the other hand, it may be that the state-enforced non-religious nature of their custody of the children required that they eschew the use of religious titles.
Peter Hansen
From: "Peter Hansen" <phansen@ourladys.org.au>
To: "'Vietnam Studies Group'" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: RE: [Vsg] Christian terms of address
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 11:16:39 +1100
Brett,
Is this in VN or amongst Viet-Kieu. I think that very significant
divergences in Vietnamese Catholic culture are starting to emerge
between in-country and Viet Kieu Catholic communities. There is, of
course, jothing surprising in that.
Peter Hansen
From: "Chung Nguyen" <Chung.Nguyen@umb.edu>
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Christian terms of address
Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:46:51 -0500
Father Peter and list:
I don't think the fact that the orphans calling the sisters "di`" by itself
indicates state's constraints. The importation of the "sister/soeur" concept
in the Vietnamese language requires two new class of terminology: (1) a noun
equivalent, in this case, "di` so+, ba` so+, di` phu+o+'c, ba` phu+o+'c,
so+, nu+~ tu," etc., (2) a set of pronouns for shorthand addressing. "Di`",
therefore, is the proper use for (2).
In general, the orphans, or anynone, could address the sisters by either (1)
or (2). For ex: "Di`, di` phu+o+'c, thu+a so+, thu+a di` phu+o+'c, etc."
It will be a sign of contraints only if (1) is expressly discouraged or disallowed.
Nguyen Ba Chung
I think you have just summarized the inevitable transition in terms of relations between priest and believers from the French-guided church of 18th-century Vietnam, which was much more conservative and hierarchical, to today's world. The Vietkieu, and Vietnamese priests trained in the US, are much more egalitarian in their outlook.
Nguyen Ba Chung
Date: Wed, 18 Jan 2006 11:02:44 -0500
From: "Tuan Hoang" <thoang1@nd.edu>
To: "Vietnam Studies Group" <vsg@u.washington.edu>
Subject: Re: [Vsg] Christian terms of address
Hi List,
On the term "di phuoc" that several have already commented, I recently I read an article from the late 1960s by the left-leaning Catholic Ly Chanh Trung, then professor of philosophy at University of Saigon. He quoted stats that in 1965, the Catholic Church in South Vietname (alone, I believe) ran 26 hospitals, 55 orphanages, 19 retirement homes, and 7 centers for lepers.
Trung didn't cite stats on the humans, but we can probably safely assume that a
high number of staffs at those institutions were nuns. He also mentioned in passing that the image of them as "di phuoc" or "good sisters" were first made popular by Han Mac Tu, the poet, after he visited the center for lepers in Quy-hoa - indeed, the same place where he would subsequently spend the last days of his life after contracting leprosy. According to Trung, Han Mac Tu "compared the sisters to grace-giving fairies" ("da vi cac di phuoc nhu
nhung nang tien ban on lanh"). Someone in this thread already pointed out the southern linguistic root of the term - "di" is a thoroughly southern word, I believe. It is interesting to note also this connection to a poet from mien trung - and a non-Catholic at that.
Tuan Hoang